[Black Guard]2H Disparity between IB?

[Tesq]

elite training is not for self defense c camon....heck 4 parry it's joke do you know how many hits do you take in just 4 sec?

then so much to increase the dps and give so much in term of substain wont work on BG you will melt in exatly 5 seconds under a good burst. You bring really very low utility with a 2h BG, just to have more trade off for stuff that BO/CH do better and easier and you are also very limited to what spec while chosen + BO can go for a lot of different utility tools.
You also loose 5sec kd.

so what it really bring to the party a BG??

woudns debuff--->no cos chosen and mara
ap regen -->no chosen one is more or less the same ap
very tank under guard --> chosen/bo are better cuz higer defense
group damage reduction-->chosen resistences aura / bo 20% damage reduction from M.damages to all party.
aoe snare-->no cuz on a bad mastery and Bo can spec for it and it will

-% crit reduction---> it's st so worst than a g-effect x se, very limiting in bigger action and the -meccanic requirement make it not trustable as you need a meccanic to regen yor ap and other stuff.
-defense reduction--->-10% block/parry aoe
-crit buff----> flat 10% crit buff on a faction that do not stack crit efficently as order and it require 2h and it can be only acces speccing high in the 2h path that further reduces your substain ability and can also be cleanse

basically you just loose in every aspect to an IB

and have mara/we in a party get you just more useless in a 6 man and you are even worst if wb spec aoe cuz chosen aura resistence is mandatory and bo stat steal is too and also is chosen heal debuff and so goes for bo 20% magic damage reduction to all party.

BG should provide better 1 ppl utility than chosen/bo it fail at this while IB shine.

a s/b block 3-5 sec kd "OR" spec 2h crit debuff wont change that, too few utility while Ib have a lots more, stronger and bo/ch is basically more solid as choice.

[Luth]

IB gains a reliable on demand cc abililty in cave in that has a 10s long cool down

Cave in CD is 20 seconds, shield of reprisal has only 10.

[Luth]

-aa increase do not booost your aoe--> bad

It also doesn't debuff incoming healing by 50%, which makes it even worse.

[TenTonHammer]

elite training is not for self defense c camon....heck 4 parry it's joke do you know how many hits do you take in just 4 sec?

then so much to increase the dps and give so much in term of substain wont work on BG you will melt in exatly 5 seconds under a good burst. You bring really very low utility with a 2h BG, just to have more trade off for stuff that BO/CH do better and easier and you are also very limited to what spec while chosen + BO can go for a lot of different utility tools.
You also loose 5sec kd.

so what it really bring to the party a BG??

woudns debuff--->no cos chosen and mara
ap regen -->no chosen one is more or less the same ap
very tank under guard --> chosen/bo are better cuz higer defense
group damage reduction-->chosen resistences aura / bo 20% damage reduction from M.damages to all party.
aoe snare-->no cuz on a bad mastery and Bo can spec for it and it will

-% crit reduction---> it's st so worst than a g-effect x se, very limiting in bigger action and the -meccanic requirement make it not trustable as you need a meccanic to regen yor ap and other stuff.
-defense reduction--->-10% block/parry aoe
-crit buff----> flat 10% crit buff on a faction that do not stack crit efficently as order and it require 2h and it can be only acces speccing high in the 2h path that further reduces your substain ability and can also be cleanse

basically you just loose in every aspect to an IB

and have mara/we in a party get you just more useless in a 6 man and you are even worst if wb spec aoe cuz chosen aura resistence is mandatory and bo stat steal is too and also is chosen heal debuff and so goes for bo 20% magic damage reduction to all party.

BG should provide better 1 ppl utility than chosen/bo it fail at this while IB shine.

a s/b block 3-5 sec kd "OR" spec 2h crit debuff wont change that, too few utility while Ib have a lots more, stronger and bo/ch is basically more solid as choice.

thats great and all but let me ask you this

How much does your blast wave debuff?

Now before you awnser i want the number of wounds you debuff when you have only specd up to quake in discord tree cause come late game 40/70 that thats as far as chosens will be specing into the discord tree

you wont be dropping 15+ pts into the tree to buff your resists and blast wave

at 32/40 HD debuffed when specd up to crimson death was 1.1K hp armor debuff at max hate was 1K

its on demand parry for "o-****" type moments has worth; on demand dmg block even for just 4 attacks has its merits

BO players will not always spec big brawlin some people will go instead for YMM and DYG

ok so in your opion CTW is "awful" what other abilty besides Try and Hurt Me offers an a direct counter to KOTBS 20% crit which order relis on and as such never stacks crit really because of it resource is by no means heard to generate on bg with DP

Never said 2h bg was better than 2h ib, ib is one of the best 2h tanks

CD being in an aoe not beneficent to procing your aa haste nor befitting it is false

You apply CD to a target making it eaiser to crit making it easier for AA haste to proc

You also neglect to mention choking fury nor do you mention soul killer which is a 50% + outgoing heal debuff due to will power debuff that has no cooldown and as such can never be clensed

[Gobtar]

Alright...

Crimson Death did not affect the BG on live (on live)

It does damage...and gives the crit out for others allies. (Also on live, not here)

Soul killer is good, can also be a trap, many BGs feel like they need to peel away from their guard in order to tag each healer with this. This can work depending on the set up but in comp match ups this can just be a trap. Choking fury is great in longer fights, and locking down a kiting RP.

BOs not Lol Deeps will have both DYG YMM and Aoe Snare in Tier 3.
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bo; ... :;;0:0:0:0:

Most of the BG is reduntant due to the marauder (armour debuff, wounds debuff, toughness debuff). AA haste is nice on a two hander, EB actually is where a lot of the BGs Burst comes from, Snare and PS right before EB means you are critting on almost every other tic and your snare tics hit hard as well. This also will trigger your AA haste for when you stop channeling.

the DPS BG doesn't have many tools, it is a threat, and I would like to see the 2hander spec have more utility, and this can be done without buffing Malice + Anguish.
It's buffs are a joke (Except for WP from Brutal Smash) cause of the effort required to trigger them compared to the chosen handing them out for free.

The only unique buff the BG has in comparison to the IB is the ability to heal DP for uhhh a piddly amount...this after-thought of an ability should be adjusted...given IBs can bubble their ally, buff armour to a respectable amount, Corp resistance (meh but still), actually decent AP hand out (the AP hand out from ET is mediocre and is never actually used as an assist tool). Buff Parry, buff crit... etc etc...

for balance purposes we aren't supposed to compare a class to it's mirror you need to take a look at the class itself and it's own internal balance, you can't do this in a vacuum because you need to take the meta into account.

The BG is alot better than when it first was launched (no Dark Protector, no outgoing buffs...) in order to bring it to relevancy it was heavily mirrored and it's still in this quasi-state where it doesn't have much of an identity...and very much a poor knock off of the IB (less so now that IB lost thier 4s KD)

The real thing that makes the BG unique is it's antidetaunt tactic, and personally, I think that tactic should have been a core ability based off of hatred management.

[Luth]

Crimson Death... DOES NOT BENEFIT THE BLACK GUARD!

It does damage...and gives the crit out for others in your party.

No, it increases the enemies chance to be crit, like an initiative debuff.
Your description would require it to buff group members instead of debuffing the enemy.

[Penril]

Alright...

Crimson Death... DOES NOT BENEFIT THE BLACK GUARD!

It does damage...and gives the crit out for others allies.

Question... do you assume this from reading the tooltip or have you actually tested it? Afaik CD increases your enemies chance to be crit by 10% for 5 seconds, meaning the BG will also benefit from it.

[Gobtar]

I played a BG on live, and I know for a fact that on live, if you used CD everyone but you benefited from the increased chance to crititcally hit. It's supposed to be like "encouraged aim" but exludes the BG like "dirty tricks"

[roadkillrobin]

Chop Fasta + Crimson Death 100% uptime for 20 sec. The abillity also do a good amount of dmg, And pretty good chance that Hastened Doom procs of Monstrous Rending wich Stacks with Chosen debuff, if it hasn't been nerfed on RoR. You pretty much gonna have 25% bonus chance to crit.
However I agree that 5 sec on CD is kinda meh, it should be atleast 10. It's an abolloty thats high up in Masery Tree, costs alot of Hate. I think it got hit by the blanket AoE nerf back on live.

[TenTonHammer]

Chop Fasta + Crimson Death 100% uptime for 20 sec. The abillity also do a good amount of dmg, And pretty good chance that Hastened Doom procs of Monstrous Rending wich Stacks with Chosen debuff, if it hasn't been nerfed on RoR. You pretty much gonna have 25% bonus chance to crit.
However I agree that 5 sec on CD is kinda meh, it should be atleast 10. It's an abolloty thats high up in Masery Tree, costs alot of Hate. I think it got hit by the blanket AoE nerf back on live.

it was 10s bugged before the devs changed it to 5

when it was 10s no one complained or said it was op

when the balance fourms comes i will be pushing for a revert

CF on your CD means that unless you are hitting 6 targets every time you will burn through your hate very fast