Mara vs WL

[Jaycub]

I think the fights of Gankbus vs Kappapride last night pretty much depict the problem with white lions (the fights themselves were really good btw, I suggest you watch them). Killing the lion pet is way to easy and you cull the WL damage by a large margin. This is something the mara does not have to cope with. Funny thing is there is no counter for the WL against 6 peeps hitting his pet.

WL pet should get some active abilities tied to stances and have different bonuses in each to help. Right now you pretty much have to run the one stance no matter what because it has the 50% AA haste tied to it and the baseline bonuses and abilities are completely negligible because of buff/debuff stacking making them moot.

Giving the pet a detaunt would be a good start, making the stances effect armor/HP/DMG as well. Remove the stance requirement for 50% AA haste and just change it to having an active pet out. Give each stance an active ability that people will actually want to use in any build. For instance trained to threaten could have a warcry/roar that increases the lions armor per X amount of enemy in X radius, trained to kill could have a buff that gives the pet X% lifesteal for X seconds, trained to hunt could have a pounce for the lion on a x sec CD etc... You buff the reliability of the pet from a completely active standpoint instead of giving WL's a free passive buff.

Pets could also use new commands, but I am not sure that is even possible at the moment. For instance being able to send a command to the lion to go to the position of your cursor could be very good in some situations.

There is really no micro or thought required to play the pet class in this game and I think that is a shame, the lion might as well be an engineer turret with legs that **** up your damage when it dies...

Spoiler:

Also I never played WL in T4 on live, but loner seems like such dogshit. Giving up 50% crit damage for 25% flat damage is already iffy enough, factor in your lose the ability to use full coordinated strike, fetch, and you lose the pet dmg as well I think the extra tactic slot for revenge would just be overall better even if you are gonna have ~5 seconds(?) of downtime in between the 50% buff and 50% crit damage from not having pet out? I also feel like it is stupid the premier pet class even has a tactic like this in the 1st place

[Luth]

Since we are just some days ( ) away from T4 I think it is ok to discuss the upcoming situation in T4.

One time on the german WAR-board waaagh.de there was a huge discussion why marauder is op. Medeas brought up some really good arguments to that. To be honest I do not know if his post is really up-to-date (especially regarding bugged abilites etc.) because I have not played marauder in RoR yet. Maybe someone can verify it. However, the main arguments should still hold.

First of all I was a little bit lazy and used google-translator but corrected some obvious mistakes. If something is still unclear, just ask.

Link to the original post from Medeas (in german): http://waaagh.de/forum/allgemeine-disku ... zgl-cb-op/

Translation:

Spoiler:

"If one wants to evaluate the balance of a class, one needs to get an idea of the following characteristics:

- How much offensive/ defensive potential does the class have?

- How much does the offense constraints the defense and vice versa?


Those are some general things that one has to define before one seeks further considerations regarding balance.



A few facts about the points above:

1. The Marauder has the highest base-damage values of all MDPS classes because he had no damage mechanics or crit-damage tactics before (Growing Instability was simply not reliable enough to count as such). That has not changed after the change of Growing Instability and so the Marauder has the same modifiers as WE / WH / WL (with limitations, since all of these classes have tactics which, while increasing the damage modifier, are in most cases of limited use such as Vindication, Masterful Treachery, Revenge, etc.). But simultaneously the marauder still has the higher base damage on his abilities.


2. The Marauder is by far the class, which makes (almost regardless of the target) the most damage compared to its maximum damage potential, i.e. while any other MDPS class can use 20-30% of its max damage-potential, the Marauder can use 50-60% on the same target. This results from the incredibly low mitigation, which one has against a Marauder since the Marauder has the best armor debuff, a toughness debuff, a tactic which allows the most important mara abilities to mitigate additionally 50% of the targets armor and an ability which benefits from the two previous mitigations and mitigates the armor again for a fixed amount.


3. The marauder is the only MDPS class which has all debuffs, which are required to kill a target with guard. Any other DPS class depends on a second class, because one either misses heal debuff or armor debuff. The Marauder does not only have both skills, but he even has the best versions of these abilities in the game: best armor debuff and best heal debuff because it is not affected by the group purge of WP, with 5s CD and 10s duration plus 50% of the healing, which is casted on the debuffed target, heals the Marauder including heal-potions and even more absurd overheal.



3.1. Bugged snare, which cannot be purged. Thus, the best snare of all MDPS classes and regarding charge and Terrible Embrace, the marauder is the best MDPS class when it comes to prevent the target from kiting.



Furthermore, the Marauder has a wounds debuff as well (after armor- and heal debuff the best debuff). Now it may not surprise you, when I say that the wounds debuff is bugged and even regardless of the bug it is the best wounds debuff in the game.



4. The Marauder wears medium armor. Besides a WL with Baited Trap in its tactic setup, no other MDPS class has more armor than the marauder. Furthermore, he has the unique ability to make him permanent immune against armor penetration. By just one click the marauder becomes the toughest MDPS in the game.



We summarize why the marauder is op:


- Higher damage potential than other MDPS classes

- lowest mitigation of its outgoing damage of all MDPS-classses

- Combines all major debuffs and has the best version of each

- High combat uptime and one of the best classes of preventing the target to get away and forcing it to stay in your assist train.

- If he needs to, the marauder can become the toughest DPS in the game simply by switching mutation



In conclusion we can say that there is no class in this game which can do more damage to a Marauder, than the Marauder himself. This is huge important for the balance in WAR. Whenever each side has the same amount of MDPS classes, the side with the marauder is capable of pressuring the other teams assist train and forcing it to back up which prevents the train from acting offensive. This again results from the fact that the marauder has all the debuffs he needs to keep the pressure high on one target.

That makes the marauder not just op, but changes the concept of WAR as well and the necessity of assisting and acting synergistic."

The bugs described here do not work on RoR, also TE > 65 feet won't work as the RoR code checks if targets are in legit range at the end of the cast afaik.

The main balance problems with the class are the same as on the mythic server:
mythic buffed the mara from a utility DD with a bit meh DPS to a capable DD without taking some of his utility.

For the people who don't remember the old brutality path: https://web.archive.org/web/20090804152 ... aspx?id=14

[Scrilian]

Web.archive is the best thing ever - it reminded me of the old days of EU release and marauder being capable of +2sec build up timers on everything even instant melee attacks and ranged dots lol, 75% heal debuff and 75% armor debuff.

https://web.archive.org/web/20081022233 ... 0:9:672:25

[roadkillrobin]

What WL needs moast of all is a orvr viable spec. Something simple as a AoE armor debuff and swap Whirling Axe to deal spirit dmg (For more high elf synnergy) would go a long way. Also remove pet requirement for pack synnergy (and change name) as pets just don't work in large scale combat.

[Toldavf]

What WL needs moast of all is a orvr viable spec. Something simple as a AoE armor debuff and swap Whirling Axe to deal spirit dmg (For more high elf synnergy) would go a long way. Also remove pet requirement for pack synnergy (and change name) as pets just don't work in large scale combat.

Removing the pet requirement would also require you to overall several other tactics like loner or vengeance. A 50% crit damage without any requirement is to strong to be code when other classes have to spec for it. I would also be allowed to any changes that encourage bombing.

[roadkillrobin]

You loose all pet utillity without pet Can't use silence, knockdown, interupts, cordinated assault, pet crit damage and tons of other stuff. Its a huge loss. Its not a free tactic with looner.

[Toldavf]

You took my post out of context. If you remove the requirements of the pet in reguard to the the crit tactic you have to completely overhaul the class.

[Bretin]

The points & suggestions Medeas made regarding the marauder balance are based on the RR100 patch including Trivial Blows and insane high armor values. Though some facts can't be overlooked and i stated myself that no class should ever have both: a debuff for his own damage type AND an incoming healdebuff. The reason for this: those debuffs are necessary to kill a target with guard and heal. If one class can provide both, the diversity in terms of group setup becomes crippled and it is very likely that we will get the same monotonous setups we had on live.

Anyway, we have to wait until T4 before we can discuss anything else than the availability of the healdebuff. On live the marauder dealt more damage than other mdps just because of the high armor values. The more armor you have, the more effective Piercing Bite will be. Due to the stacking armor debuffs (morale + skills) we have on RoR, i am not sure if PB will be the same got to go tactic, it was on live. Cutting Claw and a certain amount of WS (which is provided by gear) should be enough to cut through any DPS armor and that's where a fight starts. Hence this means other tactics might become better in terms of pressure. After the dps is dead, a group usually pressures the healer. On RoR you can stack Cutting Claw + Tank M1. Again it is likely that other tactics might become better bc they will simply provide more than ignoring 50% of an already highly reduced amount of armor.

What else got mentioned? His defense! True, on live marauder was the most tanky mdps in the game. Again that was based on insane high armor values. Even without stacking armor, a marauder had an armor overcap. A luxus he won't have here, at least i hope so (depends on what the devs are planning). What that means is that even if he was armor debuffed by the highest order armor debuff (WL), he still had around 60-70% mitigation depending on his set. Popping monstrosity was ofc too strong bc the more armor you have, the more effective the buff becomes. On RoR a Marauder is very vulnerable after being armor debuffed. That means monstro provides not even 50% of what it was on live. Giving him an baited trap equivalent (what Med suggested) might be too good and better than the actual implementation, so it might be a step into the wrong direction and end up with a buff. Not even mentioning the impact of iniative, FoF debuff (fix) and general chance to be critted.

So before discussing anything further regarding marauder balance especially with arguments like "remove GI", wait until we got T4. Destru got already limited in terms of diversity after the latest WE nerf and no matter what some people might think she is clearly not viable any longer and won't be able to compete with mdok, choppa nor marauder in T4. At least not in group play. Nerfing the marauder in an hesitated way - equal to what happend to the WE - will simply make one realm way better than the other.

PS: since our videos got mentioned and people are acting like WL is weak, make sure to pay attention to the pressure difference once the pet is alive! Mrd can't compete with the WL damage and WL is clearly the class with the highest single target pressure in the game (after the WE nerf ).

[Tiggo]

if we start balancing on 1on1 situation this game is doomed sorry ...

the mara gets guard and pocket heal and then has PLENTY of time to apply all his debuffs and he is a VITAL asset to any group.

WL is a VITAL asset to any group cause of pounce (mostly needs no guard) and armor debuff and his
burst dmg.

both are pretty balanced (right now) IMHO

[Toldavf]

The points & suggestions Medeas made regarding the marauder balance are based on the RR100 patch including Trivial Blows and insane high armor values. Though some facts can't be overlooked and i stated myself that no class should ever have both: a debuff for his own damage type AND an incoming healdebuff. The reason for this: those debuffs are necessary to kill a target with guard and heal. If one class can provide both, the diversity in terms of group setup becomes crippled and it is very likely that we will get the same monotonous setups we had on live.

Anyway, we have to wait until T4 before we can discuss anything else than the availability of the healdebuff. On live the marauder dealt more damage than other mdps just because of the high armor values. The more armor you have, the more effective Piercing Bite will be. Due to the stacking armor debuffs (morale + skills) we have on RoR, i am not sure if PB will be the same got to go tactic, it was on live. Cutting Claw and a certain amount of WS (which is provided by gear) should be enough to cut through any DPS armor and that's where a fight starts. Hence this means other tactics might become better in terms of pressure. After the dps is dead, a group usually pressures the healer. On RoR you can stack Cutting Claw + Tank M1. Again it is likely that other tactics might become better bc they will simply provide more than ignoring 50% of an already highly reduced amount of armor.

What else got mentioned? His defense! True, on live marauder was the most tanky mdps in the game. Again that was based on insane high armor values. Even without stacking armor, a marauder had an armor overcap. A luxus he won't have here, at least i hope so (depends on what the devs are planning). What that means is that even if he was armor debuffed by the highest order armor debuff (WL), he still had around 60-70% mitigation depending on his set. Popping monstrosity was ofc too strong bc the more armor you have, the more effective the buff becomes. On RoR a Marauder is very vulnerable after being armor debuffed. That means monstro provides not even 50% of what it was on live. Giving him an baited trap equivalent (what Med suggested) might be too good and better than the actual implementation, so it might be a step into the wrong direction and end up with a buff. Not even mentioning the impact of iniative, FoF debuff (fix) and general chance to be critted.

So before discussing anything further regarding marauder balance especially with arguments like "remove GI", wait until we got T4. Destru got already limited in terms of diversity after the latest WE nerf and no matter what some people might think she is clearly not viable any longer and won't be able to compete with mdok, choppa nor marauder in T4. At least not in group play. Nerfing the marauder in an hesitated way - equal to what happend to the WE - will simply make one realm way better than the other.

PS: since our videos got mentioned and people are acting like WL is weak, make sure to pay attention to the pressure difference once the pet is alive! Mrd can't compete with the WL damage and WL is clearly the class with the highest single target pressure in the game (after the WE nerf ).

A good display of ipracrical game knowledge. The WE will pick up again once it can full spec imo. As for the the Mara having both a heal debuff and armour debuff taking away the heal won't hurt it in a solid 6 man as badly as some think.