What justifies this ?

[Schweedy]

I want also to point out that the undefendable guard damage generated by Rampage doesn't appear on sc/city damage sheet- Which means that the damage dealt by slayer is much much higher than what reported

Rampage is less of a big deal in city due to how it functions. If you are having very fast fights or long fights then Rampage isn’t very impactful. The only time it’s amazing is if you are in choke points (keeps/forts) or a 60s fight then it’s not great due to the fact that it takes about 15s before you can deal decent damage with rampage up and it will only give about 10s of good damage during its uptime and to reset it a second time in a fight relieve all pressure from Slayers and let’s you reset. It also takes at most 2-3 GCD from a BO to shatter it and they have around -10s from the time it’s cast until the Slayer gets to red and deal any damage.

The real reason Slayer is so good in city is that ID can cover their AoE sustain and let them ST targets with retribution channels for coordinated AoE burst. Issue is most destro aren’t good enough at the game nor have any sort of situational awareness to why this is so strong and just cry about Rampage (which is strong but not what makes slayer so good in cities).

That's all cities are. Clumps on Clumps fighting each other for a MAIN OBJECTIVE (static or mobile) and usually assisting, unless you get a super premade and pretty much every party and even tanks has an assigned role. Altdorf is one MASSIVE chokehold nearly everywhere you go, it's only slightly better than IC. IC cannot by itself prevent 5 Full/or Partial Sov Slayers with guard from wrecking face with SIMULTANEOUS UNDEFENDABLE DAMAGE. Keep in mind Slayers can mask their Enchantments (by 2-3 abilities) and with an AM in their party hide rampage under at least 5 additional Enchantments.

This cookie cutter rebuttal, which is valid in most PvP instances, is almost completely negligible in RvR settings due to both the speed of incoming damage and order of priority within the engagements (normally healers power rezzing). Please go ahead and tell me that your warband tanks rotate Shatter Enchantment on Slayers or Choppas in Forts/Keeps and Cities. Kudos to the warband that can do an on-demand 5 way power cleanse on primary targets in 2-3 GCDs (order or destro).

[Gurf]

I want also to point out that the undefendable guard damage generated by Rampage doesn't appear on sc/city damage sheet- Which means that the damage dealt by slayer is much much higher than what reported

Rampage is less of a big deal in city due to how it functions. If you are having very fast fights or long fights then Rampage isn’t very impactful. The only time it’s amazing is if you are in choke points (keeps/forts) or a 60s fight then it’s not great due to the fact that it takes about 15s before you can deal decent damage with rampage up and it will only give about 10s of good damage during its uptime and to reset it a second time in a fight relieve all pressure from Slayers and let’s you reset. It also takes at most 2-3 GCD from a BO to shatter it and they have around -10s from the time it’s cast until the Slayer gets to red and deal any damage.

The real reason Slayer is so good in city is that ID can cover their AoE sustain and let them ST targets with retribution channels for coordinated AoE burst. Issue is most destro aren’t good enough at the game nor have any sort of situational awareness to why this is so strong and just cry about Rampage (which is strong but not what makes slayer so good in cities).

That's all cities are. Clumps on Clumps fighting each other for a MAIN OBJECTIVE (static or mobile) and usually assisting, unless you get a super premade and pretty much every party and even tanks has an assigned role. Altdorf is one MASSIVE chokehold nearly everywhere you go, it's only slightly better than IC. IC cannot by itself prevent 5 Full/or Partial Sov Slayers with guard from wrecking face with SIMULTANEOUS UNDEFENDABLE DAMAGE. Keep in mind Slayers can mask their Enchantments (by 2-3 abilities) and with an AM in their party hide rampage under at least 5 additional Enchantments.

This cookie cutter rebuttal, which is valid in most PvP instances, is almost completely negligible in RvR settings due to both the speed of incoming damage and order of priority within the engagements (normally healers power rezzing). Please go ahead and tell me that your warband tanks rotate Shatter Enchantment on Slayers or Choppas in Forts/Keeps and Cities. Kudos to the warband that can do an on-demand 5 way power cleanse on primary targets in 2-3 GCDs (order or destro).

This is what Order were saying for months that City favours the better melee ball fighting at a Chokepoint, that it would be better if it was designed to be a bit more friendly to kiters and other classes or forced the forces to split up more; we were told repeatedly in rebuttal that it isn't a problem and the problem is that Order need to organise themselves better and try different tactics. So now Desto experience the same issue in a small handful of City and they start to see the other side, but instead they say the problem is that Slayers are too good and need to be nerfed, what would be the result of that- Destro wins the aoe melee ball every time again and 75% of City again. As it stands right now with Slayers as they are now City win rate is about 50-50, what is the real issue here?

[farng84]

The real issue is that the answers you are providing are not addressing the question raised by the OP.
Another issue might be that we keep saying you need to consider the thing as a whole, you can't just compare two classes (this is done on both sides btw) to avoid discussing potential issues.
BTW the whole picture is never really compared.
Also individual comparisons are to be expected and that's how some classes are chosen for a meta.
Between faction you should also be able to compare roles.
For example take two mirror dps one does some extra damage, but its mirror has slightly more utilities to balance, you could compare them and find them balanced.
Another example would be between two tanks, where you could compare their tankiness (as capability to soak damage) and utility, you could find them balanced and so on.
Not saying that the same utilities are to be found on the two mirrors (e.g. marauder does not have WL pounce because it can be found on SH), I'm saying that you can compare mirrors based on various parameters and the comparison is valid.
In that sense even the initial question of the OP makes sense

[Ysaran]

Rampage is less of a big deal in city due to how it functions. If you are having very fast fights or long fights then Rampage isn’t very impactful. The only time it’s amazing is if you are in choke points (keeps/forts) or a 60s fight then it’s not great due to the fact that it takes about 15s before you can deal decent damage with rampage up and it will only give about 10s of good damage during its uptime and to reset it a second time in a fight relieve all pressure from Slayers and let’s you reset. It also takes at most 2-3 GCD from a BO to shatter it and they have around -10s from the time it’s cast until the Slayer gets to red and deal any damage.

The real reason Slayer is so good in city is that ID can cover their AoE sustain and let them ST targets with retribution channels for coordinated AoE burst. Issue is most destro aren’t good enough at the game nor have any sort of situational awareness to why this is so strong and just cry about Rampage (which is strong but not what makes slayer so good in cities).

This is exactly why I said that Rampage is overrated in my first post. ID is what give Slayer the upper hand on Choppa, Rampage is just the cherry on top. What you quated was just a notes of a previous post

[Rapzel]

Spoiler:

Your assumption is 100% based upon that im an order player.... when i only play destro

EDIT: also claiming that absolute best class in the game, Black Orc, is inferior to SM says alot

Dragon talons with tactic = 20% reduced dmg output for 4 secs on everyone in 20 ft of target, no cd.
BO has Ya missed me, undefendable attack reduces one target's physical damage by 20% for 10 sec, requires block, 20 sec cd.
Savin me hide, increases toughness (doesn't stack with other toughness buffs) and reduces inc magic damage on group members by 20% for 4 sec, no cd.

Intimidating blow, morale drain, can slot tactic to reduce crit chance on affected target
Clobber, can slot tactic to drain morale.

Whispering Wind, silences target, reduces all ability cds in party by 5 secs. 20 sec cd

WAAAAAGH, reduces corp resistance in AoE, AoE dmg, increases AA damage for party by 25%, 5 sec cd, can slot tactic to make it reduce ability cd in party by 5 sec, but increases cd to 20 sec.

More career specific abilities
SM AoE interrupt with block 5% and armor, 10 sec cd.
Punt on block.

BO Cd increaser on one target.
Can't hit me 50% block, movement speed reduced to 60%, damage on block.
Get 'Em - AP increaser for group 100 ft.

Is BO tankier than SM? Yes full def BO is tankier (higher avoidance and hp)
Does SM have more and easier to use utility? Yes.

Please enlighten me where this BO best career in game ability is? Quite sure KotBS is the best tank in the game, and that that is the general consensus.

Funny that you forgot that BO has U Wot - unbreakable/unshatterable (!!!!) ALLAROUND (+damage, + def, + resisit/armor buff) that lasts 20 seconds, requires nothing (0 stance) and has laughable drawback of - 20% movespeed for 10 seconds of its downtime

Also Dragon Talon tactic does not work since 2018(Bug report still there), but whatever

Is BO tankier?
Well, when under U Wot and Cant Hit Me, BO stands in the Fort lord room entrance and cant be killed by order OP rdd.

1. We're talking about WB specs, no BO in a serious WB would go you wot, as it's far up the 2h tree, and would make it impossible to reach WAAAAAGH.
2. I also left out parry buff and wall of darting steel on SM, do you think there's a reason I did that?
3. Where did I state that BO is not tankier? Quite sure I explicitly said BO is tankier but provides less utility compared to SM.
4. Does YOU WOT?! matter in WB? No because mitigation does NOT apply to guard damage, it can only be avoided by block/parry/dodge/disrupt. Resistance and armor matter very little in 24vs24 compared to avoidance.

[Rapzel]

Rampage is less of a big deal in city due to how it functions. If you are having very fast fights or long fights then Rampage isn’t very impactful. The only time it’s amazing is if you are in choke points (keeps/forts) or a 60s fight then it’s not great due to the fact that it takes about 15s before you can deal decent damage with rampage up and it will only give about 10s of good damage during its uptime and to reset it a second time in a fight relieve all pressure from Slayers and let’s you reset. It also takes at most 2-3 GCD from a BO to shatter it and they have around -10s from the time it’s cast until the Slayer gets to red and deal any damage.

The real reason Slayer is so good in city is that ID can cover their AoE sustain and let them ST targets with retribution channels for coordinated AoE burst. Issue is most destro aren’t good enough at the game nor have any sort of situational awareness to why this is so strong and just cry about Rampage (which is strong but not what makes slayer so good in cities).

That's all cities are. Clumps on Clumps fighting each other for a MAIN OBJECTIVE (static or mobile) and usually assisting, unless you get a super premade and pretty much every party and even tanks has an assigned role. Altdorf is one MASSIVE chokehold nearly everywhere you go, it's only slightly better than IC. IC cannot by itself prevent 5 Full/or Partial Sov Slayers with guard from wrecking face with SIMULTANEOUS UNDEFENDABLE DAMAGE. Keep in mind Slayers can mask their Enchantments (by 2-3 abilities) and with an AM in their party hide rampage under at least 5 additional Enchantments.

This cookie cutter rebuttal, which is valid in most PvP instances, is almost completely negligible in RvR settings due to both the speed of incoming damage and order of priority within the engagements (normally healers power rezzing). Please go ahead and tell me that your warband tanks rotate Shatter Enchantment on Slayers or Choppas in Forts/Keeps and Cities. Kudos to the warband that can do an on-demand 5 way power cleanse on primary targets in 2-3 GCDs (order or destro).

This is what Order were saying for months that City favours the better melee ball fighting at a Chokepoint, that it would be better if it was designed to be a bit more friendly to kiters and other classes or forced the forces to split up more; we were told repeatedly in rebuttal that it isn't a problem and the problem is that Order need to organise themselves better and try different tactics. So now Desto experience the same issue in a small handful of City and they start to see the other side, but instead they say the problem is that Slayers are too good and need to be nerfed, what would be the result of that- Destro wins the aoe melee ball every time again and 75% of City again. As it stands right now with Slayers as they are now City win rate is about 50-50, what is the real issue here?

The issue is the same as it's been for a long time, Order has superior ranged DPS, which is fine they've always had that. Recent rework of SW also buffed the ranged dps that order has access to when it comes to WBs. It was sadly a nerf to rSW small scale but for the last 3 years ASW had been their small scale spec anyway.
(I have complaint threads about how shitty rSW was from years ago if you don't believe me)

They have through recent changes superior WB tanks, (IB is their worst WB tank but through recent changes they actually work, not saying they're close to SM/KotBS, but they have situations where they fill a purpose of AP and slayer buff bots).
BG is run as a ST group tank, chosen is good but no where close to kotbs in utility, BO is tanky af and has some utility but compared to SM it lacks utility.

So destro strengths have been melee ball and morale drop (order has had morale drains to counter drop) but morale damage has been nerfed (which is understandable I might add) and the last few changes to choppa and mara has been to "line up with order melee train".
What edge does destro have left?

I understand that rework is not done in an hour and that it takes time, but where was the last changes that changed any destro career in a positive way for WB play? (Mara rework, that got nerfed a couple of weeks later)

Slayer has always been seen as the superior melee dps career in the game, which is fine, choppa instead brought utility and burst, but when the burst of the choppa and utility is nerfed and NOTHING happens to slayer (Quite sure Rampage has had more complaints and whine threads on this forum than GTDC) you start to wonder what's actually going on.

Devs have not stated why things have been changed so there's ZERO TRANSPARENCY, which leads to conspiracy theories, maybe they're reworking rampage and ID to make Slayer and Choppa to be "equals".

I'm quite sure if they went and nerfed Engi which is played a lot more than Magus, Order players would be quite pissed off and voice their opinions.
Engi is seen as the inferior career to Magus, pull is slower, career requires weaponskill, Magus only needs int and so on.
It wouldn't make sense, would it if there was no transparency right?

Yet here we are with one career that pretty much went from being inferior to it's "mirror" (I don't like this word in this game tbh)
to being the worst AoE dps melee (WE/WH/aSW are in my definition single target melee), and we don't know why.

I play both sides and theres a huge difference between them when it comes to WB balance atm. I can join bad players in a 12 man and just hold a spot against a 24 man, while 24 Vs 24 on the other side needs good coordination.

P.s
Small scale is skewered towards destro instead atm which is probably why you see so many destro 6 mans and order getting farmed constantly in scs, make WL with Pet good again (a thing I never thought I would write).
D.s

[Gurf]

The issue is the same as it's been for a long time, Order has superior ranged DPS, which is fine they've always had that. Recent rework of SW also buffed the ranged dps that order has access to when it comes to WBs. It was sadly a nerf to rSW small scale but for the last 3 years ASW had been their small scale spec anyway.
(I have complaint threads about how shitty rSW was from years ago if you don't believe me)

They have through recent changes superior WB tanks, (IB is their worst WB tank but through recent changes they actually work, not saying they're close to SM/KotBS, but they have situations where they fill a purpose of AP and slayer buff bots).
BG is run as a ST group tank, chosen is good but no where close to kotbs in utility, BO is tanky af and has some utility but compared to SM it lacks utility.

So destro strengths have been melee ball and morale drop (order has had morale drains to counter drop) but morale damage has been nerfed (which is understandable I might add) and the last few changes to choppa and mara has been to "line up with order melee train".
What edge does destro have left?

I understand that rework is not done in an hour and that it takes time, but where was the last changes that changed any destro career in a positive way for WB play? (Mara rework, that got nerfed a couple of weeks later)

Slayer has always been seen as the superior melee dps career in the game, which is fine, choppa instead brought utility and burst, but when the burst of the choppa and utility is nerfed and NOTHING happens to slayer (Quite sure Rampage has had more complaints and whine threads on this forum than GTDC) you start to wonder what's actually going on.

Devs have not stated why things have been changed so there's ZERO TRANSPARENCY, which leads to conspiracy theories, maybe they're reworking rampage and ID to make Slayer and Choppa to be "equals".

I'm quite sure if they went and nerfed Engi which is played a lot more than Magus, Order players would be quite pissed off and voice their opinions.
Engi is seen as the inferior career to Magus, pull is slower, career requires weaponskill, Magus only needs int and so on.
It wouldn't make sense, would it if there was no transparency right?

Yet here we are with one career that pretty much went from being inferior to it's "mirror" (I don't like this word in this game tbh)
to being the worst AoE dps melee (WE/WH/aSW are in my definition single target melee), and we don't know why.

I play both sides and theres a huge difference between them when it comes to WB balance atm. I can join bad players in a 12 man and just hold a spot against a 24 man, while 24 Vs 24 on the other side needs good coordination.

P.s
Small scale is skewered towards destro instead atm which is probably why you see so many destro 6 mans and order getting farmed constantly in scs, make WL with Pet good again (a thing I never thought I would write).
D.s

You exaggerate a lot, overall Destro still has it easier creating an effective melee train, that hasn't changed just because tanks can now block GTDC, the skill still brings in the squishy targets you want into the grinder and doesn't give immunity to tanks as much now. MSH is far superior to MSW for melee train. Mara is still a beast with great survivability and utility as well as good aoe damage. Tanks are so so, KOBS has some advantages over Chosen, BG has advantages over IB, they can all fulfil their main role no problem. Due to survivability the Shaman is better than AM. Due to morale boost tactic Zealot is better than RP. There is very little difference between the sides in terms of overall Warband balance.

I play warbands 4-5 times a week and I have very rarely seen a Warband with more than 3 Slayers in it at one time, that may go up a bit during City but Slayer really isn't that popular a class on Order. Most Warbands I play in have SW, Engi, WH, in them, often quite a few, you will very rarely see a Slayer stacked Warband in the lakes. Two things have changed recently though which has levelled the playing field a bit which is that there are more Order players now with Sov (a few months ago Destro had a clear gear advantage), also many of the Order guilds which had a lot of new low rr players have levelled up, geared up and got more organised and experienced. Order has a few pug leaders who properly organise their warbands, which allows the more organised guilds to play around them during EU time.

[farng84]

Spoiler:

The issue is the same as it's been for a long time, Order has superior ranged DPS, which is fine they've always had that. Recent rework of SW also buffed the ranged dps that order has access to when it comes to WBs. It was sadly a nerf to rSW small scale but for the last 3 years ASW had been their small scale spec anyway.
(I have complaint threads about how shitty rSW was from years ago if you don't believe me)

They have through recent changes superior WB tanks, (IB is their worst WB tank but through recent changes they actually work, not saying they're close to SM/KotBS, but they have situations where they fill a purpose of AP and slayer buff bots).
BG is run as a ST group tank, chosen is good but no where close to kotbs in utility, BO is tanky af and has some utility but compared to SM it lacks utility.

So destro strengths have been melee ball and morale drop (order has had morale drains to counter drop) but morale damage has been nerfed (which is understandable I might add) and the last few changes to choppa and mara has been to "line up with order melee train".
What edge does destro have left?

I understand that rework is not done in an hour and that it takes time, but where was the last changes that changed any destro career in a positive way for WB play? (Mara rework, that got nerfed a couple of weeks later)

Slayer has always been seen as the superior melee dps career in the game, which is fine, choppa instead brought utility and burst, but when the burst of the choppa and utility is nerfed and NOTHING happens to slayer (Quite sure Rampage has had more complaints and whine threads on this forum than GTDC) you start to wonder what's actually going on.

Devs have not stated why things have been changed so there's ZERO TRANSPARENCY, which leads to conspiracy theories, maybe they're reworking rampage and ID to make Slayer and Choppa to be "equals".

I'm quite sure if they went and nerfed Engi which is played a lot more than Magus, Order players would be quite pissed off and voice their opinions.
Engi is seen as the inferior career to Magus, pull is slower, career requires weaponskill, Magus only needs int and so on.
It wouldn't make sense, would it if there was no transparency right?

Yet here we are with one career that pretty much went from being inferior to it's "mirror" (I don't like this word in this game tbh)
to being the worst AoE dps melee (WE/WH/aSW are in my definition single target melee), and we don't know why.

I play both sides and theres a huge difference between them when it comes to WB balance atm. I can join bad players in a 12 man and just hold a spot against a 24 man, while 24 Vs 24 on the other side needs good coordination.

P.s
Small scale is skewered towards destro instead atm which is probably why you see so many destro 6 mans and order getting farmed constantly in scs, make WL with Pet good again (a thing I never thought I would write).
D.s

You exaggerate a lot, overall Destro still has it easier creating an effective melee train, that hasn't changed just because tanks can now block GTDC, the skill still brings in the squishy targets you want into the grinder and doesn't give immunity to tanks as much now. MSH is far superior to MSW for melee train. Mara is still a beast with great survivability and utility as well as good aoe damage. Tanks are so so, KOBS has some advantages over Chosen, BG has advantages over IB, they can all fulfil their main role no problem. Due to survivability the Shaman is better than AM. Due to morale boost tactic Zealot is better than RP. There is very little difference between the sides in terms of overall Warband balance.

I play warbands 4-5 times a week and I have very rarely seen a Warband with more than 3 Slayers in it at one time, that may go up a bit during City but Slayer really isn't that popular a class on Order. Most Warbands I play in have SW, Engi, WH, in them, often quite a few, you will very rarely see a Slayer stacked Warband in the lakes. Two things have changed recently though which has levelled the playing field a bit which is that there are more Order players now with Sov (a few months ago Destro had a clear gear advantage), also many of the Order guilds which had a lot of new low rr players have levelled up, geared up and got more organised and experienced. Order has a few pug leaders who properly organise their warbands, which allows the more organised guilds to play around them during EU time.

Destro has indeed an easier time creating a melee train... but that's simply because there are more melee dps players on destro. While it is a known and well established fact that slayers are overall stronger than choppas there is a ton of choppas around... why? do people like the weaker version, same for BW/Sorc or Engi/Magus btw (well in case of BW/sorc the most abundant is also slightly stronger)
Abundance of the classes does not mean that they are superior in term of mechanics or performances, it just mean that between options ppl chose what they would like to play.
Melee dps classes looks cooler or funnier (mSH it's just hilarious) and ppl pick them instead of other options when playing destro, opposite often happens on order.
Again, abundances of classes does not mean that there are no problems with the skills or performances of those classes which are scarcely selected...

[Rapzel]

The issue is the same as it's been for a long time, Order has superior ranged DPS, which is fine they've always had that. Recent rework of SW also buffed the ranged dps that order has access to when it comes to WBs. It was sadly a nerf to rSW small scale but for the last 3 years ASW had been their small scale spec anyway.
(I have complaint threads about how shitty rSW was from years ago if you don't believe me)

They have through recent changes superior WB tanks, (IB is their worst WB tank but through recent changes they actually work, not saying they're close to SM/KotBS, but they have situations where they fill a purpose of AP and slayer buff bots).
BG is run as a ST group tank, chosen is good but no where close to kotbs in utility, BO is tanky af and has some utility but compared to SM it lacks utility.

So destro strengths have been melee ball and morale drop (order has had morale drains to counter drop) but morale damage has been nerfed (which is understandable I might add) and the last few changes to choppa and mara has been to "line up with order melee train".
What edge does destro have left?

I understand that rework is not done in an hour and that it takes time, but where was the last changes that changed any destro career in a positive way for WB play? (Mara rework, that got nerfed a couple of weeks later)

Slayer has always been seen as the superior melee dps career in the game, which is fine, choppa instead brought utility and burst, but when the burst of the choppa and utility is nerfed and NOTHING happens to slayer (Quite sure Rampage has had more complaints and whine threads on this forum than GTDC) you start to wonder what's actually going on.

Devs have not stated why things have been changed so there's ZERO TRANSPARENCY, which leads to conspiracy theories, maybe they're reworking rampage and ID to make Slayer and Choppa to be "equals".

I'm quite sure if they went and nerfed Engi which is played a lot more than Magus, Order players would be quite pissed off and voice their opinions.
Engi is seen as the inferior career to Magus, pull is slower, career requires weaponskill, Magus only needs int and so on.
It wouldn't make sense, would it if there was no transparency right?

Yet here we are with one career that pretty much went from being inferior to it's "mirror" (I don't like this word in this game tbh)
to being the worst AoE dps melee (WE/WH/aSW are in my definition single target melee), and we don't know why.

I play both sides and theres a huge difference between them when it comes to WB balance atm. I can join bad players in a 12 man and just hold a spot against a 24 man, while 24 Vs 24 on the other side needs good coordination.

P.s
Small scale is skewered towards destro instead atm which is probably why you see so many destro 6 mans and order getting farmed constantly in scs, make WL with Pet good again (a thing I never thought I would write).
D.s

You exaggerate a lot, overall Destro still has it easier creating an effective melee train, that hasn't changed just because tanks can now block GTDC, the skill still brings in the squishy targets you want into the grinder and doesn't give immunity to tanks as much now. MSH is far superior to MSW for melee train. Mara is still a beast with great survivability and utility as well as good aoe damage. Tanks are so so, KOBS has some advantages over Chosen, BG has advantages over IB, they can all fulfil their main role no problem. Due to survivability the Shaman is better than AM. Due to morale boost tactic Zealot is better than RP. There is very little difference between the sides in terms of overall Warband balance.

I play warbands 4-5 times a week and I have very rarely seen a Warband with more than 3 Slayers in it at one time, that may go up a bit during City but Slayer really isn't that popular a class on Order. Most Warbands I play in have SW, Engi, WH, in them, often quite a few, you will very rarely see a Slayer stacked Warband in the lakes. Two things have changed recently though which has levelled the playing field a bit which is that there are more Order players now with Sov (a few months ago Destro had a clear gear advantage), also many of the Order guilds which had a lot of new low rr players have levelled up, geared up and got more organised and experienced. Order has a few pug leaders who properly organise their warbands, which allows the more organised guilds to play around them during EU time.

You obviously do not understand what I'm talking about.

overall Destro still has it easier creating an effective melee train, that hasn't changed just because tanks can now block GTDC, the skill still brings in the squishy targets you want into the grinder and doesn't give immunity to tanks as much now. MSH is far superior to MSW for melee train.

This just shows your complete and utter ignorance for game balance and how you have no understanding of mechanics in the game.
rSW has been reword to work in WB, rSH has not, I even state that I count aSW as SINGLE TARGET melee career, I do not compare MSH and "MSW" anywhere.
Nor do I compare rSH and rSW.

Two things have changed recently though which has levelled the playing field a bit which is that there are more Order players now with Sov (a few months ago Destro had a clear gear advantage), also many of the Order guilds which had a lot of new low rr players have levelled up, geared up and got more organised and experienced.

Gear means very little in this game, it affects two players at the same level of skill and who have equally strong careers against each other. Overall the better career for the situation and better player wins over the better geared character.
You also forgot that destro got 3 nerfs in a row, morale, Monstro Mara and now WB Choppa.

Ofc Destro has it easier creating a melee train, they have more viable MELEE careers, Order has it easier creating a RANGED train, because guess what? They have more viable RANGED careers.
You still don't understand that IF you nerf destro melee, and don't touch Order Ranged or Order Melee, Order indirectly will be buffed.

When the MELEE trains are even or close to balanced, and the other factions RANGED train blows the other factions RANGED train out of the water, is the game balanced?
When one factions tanks are better then the other and healers are somewhat balanced (biggest difference being between AM and Shaman) does that make the game balanced?
Do you see any issue when one side has the 3 undisputed best careers for WB play in BW (ranged DPS), Slayer (melee DPS), KotBS (Tank) when there's 4 archtypes in the game?
While the last Archtype can be argued about which one is stronger?

What WB? Bene tlielax, KoO or some other Boomer WB, because I've never seen a good WB run with that few Slayers.

I'll leave you with some wisdom from your house God Bombling

Order is overstacked on warband tools on a few select classes:
Knight is overloaded, warriorpriest is overloaded, engineer has all the control you could wish for but noone knows how to play them, slayer and BW are better for largescale than their mirrors. And thats the core of order largescale all squished into these few classes. Sure you can run WH, WL, IB and whatever but some of these classes actually requires you to play "super well" Archmage being the perfect example of a class that tecnically could outperform its reputation but due to too many mediocre AMs the class is not picked up anymore.

it's game imbalances that screwd Order over, that's why the destro re-rollers are rolling in Royal Crests atm on their Order toons.

[Schweedy]

Tanks are so so, KOBS has some advantages over Chosen, BG has advantages over IB, they can all fulfil their main role no problem. Due to survivability the Shaman is better than AM. Due to morale boost tactic Zealot is better than RP. There is very little difference between the sides in terms of overall Warband balance.

For warband. Like Rapzel already quoted. Knights, Slayer, and BW are the holy Warband Trifecta every smart Order Leader tries to use and abuse. You have never played a Zealot if you think Morale Self-Pump makes it better than Runepriest for WB play. Windblock has been gutted due to complaints and moans. It's also a measly 10 second heal debuff on mostly tanks and their MDPS (risk). 9 max in a 30ft radius. Lol.

And you lose the Zealot stagger for survivability, cause backline ganking squads in city scenarios aren't a thing right?

EDIT: RP can also truly abuse the AP/Blessing/BuBble on Direct heal they get from Healing Ritual. Zealots have to invest significantly more to get the same benefit since the AP tactic is in their middle tree. Come on man.