[WE] OYK vs Dragon Gun

[jokerspsycho]

Hilarious how WE wants to be superior as a ST and as a AOE mirror versus WH.

I am newer so forgive the thought, but doesn't BaL make WH a better single target burst

especially in sov when u can get BB parry, vanish, pw, bal, 50% crit dmg tactic.

Edit: aside from Kiss v bullet mechanic. Why pick a we over a wh?

[Draugris]

If your healers are standing close enough that one Dragon Gun is keeping a heal debuff on them, that's not the ability's fault.

This is a PvP game, horrible positioning should be punished

[teiloh]

Hilarious how WE wants to be superior as a ST and as a AOE mirror versus WH.

I am newer so forgive the thought, but doesn't BaL make WH a better single target burst

especially in sov when u can get BB parry, vanish, pw, bal, 50% crit dmg tactic.

Edit: aside from Kiss v bullet mechanic. Why pick a we over a wh?

BAL does good overall damage but its DPS/burst is not remarkable afaik, especially since it can get cleansed.

[roadkillrobin]

OYK! hits twice, which is double the chance to crit, double the chance to proc other effects (Jagged Edge, FTHQ, weapon procs) and I need to parry BOTH hits to avoid the KD. It is a more than reasonable 'mirror' to Dragon Gun.

If your healers are standing close enough that one Dragon Gun is keeping a heal debuff on them, that's not the ability's fault.

I would argue the double hit is kind of the point for it being able to proc on both hits with finishers, increases the chances of the proc. Still it is a chance.

The kisses proc plenty enough as it is. The fastest a WH can hit with his bullets is spamming absolution, which is roughly 2 seconds (gcd, ability to build accusation, gcd give or take) and that dumps our resource on a shitty 1-spike finisher. WEs kisses are proccing just as fast and they don't have to dump their resource to do it.

WH bullets also does more then twice the damage of Kisses.

[Sinisterror]

Pretty much all procs was nerfed in this way a couple years ago. Mostly due to a guild found a way to exploit Engineers and turrets and giving their machinegun and instant cast skill a insande dps output with BW's proc trough Crown of Fire and the dmg increase for proc tactic. So instead of fixing the turret gaining all BW procs benefits they nerfed dmg procs across the board with a ICD making them unable to function on percentage base on AoE hit. Better would be to have ICD on individual hostile targets, rather then on output of the player casting the skill.

The player output ICD on procs is one of the worst implementations done imo.

Word. Nerf riposte to what it was live and bring old procs back! Example keep icd on grp damage procs like dok and sorc when they proc on other players but when they proc from their own attakcs no icd.

[Sarnai]

The kisses proc plenty enough as it is. The fastest a WH can hit with his bullets is spamming absolution, which is roughly 2 seconds (gcd, ability to build accusation, gcd give or take) and that dumps our resource on a shitty 1-spike finisher. WEs kisses are proccing just as fast and they don't have to dump their resource to do it.

WH bullets also do more then twice the damage of Kisses.

Kisses are free. The can proc on your AA, which means to use them you have to use zero action points and zero resource. WH executions require action points and exhaust all resource just to get that one bullet proc.

[sighy]

The kisses proc plenty enough as it is. The fastest a WH can hit with his bullets is spamming absolution, which is roughly 2 seconds (gcd, ability to build accusation, gcd give or take) and that dumps our resource on a shitty 1-spike finisher. WEs kisses are proccing just as fast and they don't have to dump their resource to do it.

WH bullets also do more then twice the damage of Kisses.

Kisses are free. The can proc on your AA, which means to use them you have to use zero action points and zero resource. WH executions require action points and exhaust all resource just to get that one bullet proc.

WH builds to a big payoff, if they use DG, where it's applied to everyone within 48ft, unlike WE who gets to apply it once per 2 seconds, if rng wills it, on a single target.

So mathematically, with the aoe cap of 24 WE would need frame perfect procs, with perfect rng over a minute to equal the procs of one good DG shot gets.

[jokerspsycho]

WH bullets also do more then twice the damage of Kisses.

Kisses are free. The can proc on your AA, which means to use them you have to use zero action points and zero resource. WH executions require action points and exhaust all resource just to get that one bullet proc.

WH builds to a big payoff, if they use DG, where it's applied to everyone within 48ft, unlike WE who gets to apply it once per 2 seconds, if rng wills it, on a single target.

So mathematically, with the aoe cap of 24 WE would need frame perfect procs, with perfect rng over a minute to equal the procs of one good DG shot gets.

Even if it didnt hit everyone. The ICD needs reduced.

[Sarnai]

WH bullets also do more then twice the damage of Kisses.

Kisses are free. The can proc on your AA, which means to use them you have to use zero action points and zero resource. WH executions require action points and exhaust all resource just to get that one bullet proc.

WH builds to a big payoff, if they use DG, where it's applied to everyone within 48ft, unlike WE who gets to apply it once per 2 seconds, if rng wills it, on a single target.

So mathematically, with the aoe cap of 24 WE would need frame perfect procs, with perfect rng over a minute to equal the procs of one good DG shot gets.

The healduff proc is 5s, DG's cooldown is 10s, allowing 5s of full healing in between procs. Without a CD decreaser, there is no way for a WH to keep a continuous outgoing heal debuff on a healer, which a WE can with her kisses proccing so frequently. And as I said before, if your healers are dumb enough to all be standing close enough that one DG hits them you should be looking at them before DG. Hitting 24 targets isn't a 'good DG', it's 'god-awful positioning.'

For argument's sake, let's say the ICD is removed from kisses and now OYK can proc potentially on every target it hits. Then so can spamming Slice with Broad Severing. So can all attacks using Broad Swings M3. Now you're handing out debuffs every second spamming Slice and then hitting OYK again once the CD is up. WH/WE are struggling hard for a place in WBs/cities, believe me I understand that. But if you think letting your kisses proc on all OYK targets will suddenly have WBs begging for WEs to join them....well DG already does that, and there's still not much of a place for WHs in city.

Dragon Gun/OYK aren't the roots or the answers to either of our class's problems.

[sighy]

Kisses are free. The can proc on your AA, which means to use them you have to use zero action points and zero resource. WH executions require action points and exhaust all resource just to get that one bullet proc.

WH builds to a big payoff, if they use DG, where it's applied to everyone within 48ft, unlike WE who gets to apply it once per 2 seconds, if rng wills it, on a single target.

So mathematically, with the aoe cap of 24 WE would need frame perfect procs, with perfect rng over a minute to equal the procs of one good DG shot gets.

The healduff proc is 5s, DG's cooldown is 10s, allowing 5s of full healing in between procs. Without a CD decreaser, there is no way for a WH to keep a continuous outgoing heal debuff on a healer, which a WE can with her kisses proccing so frequently. And as I said before, if your healers are dumb enough to all be standing close enough that one DG hits them you should be looking at them before DG. Hitting 24 targets isn't a 'good DG', it's 'god-awful positioning.'

For argument's sake, let's say the ICD is removed from kisses and now OYK can proc potentially on every target it hits. Then so can spamming Slice with Broad Severing. So can all attacks using Broad Swings M3. Now you're handing out debuffs every second spamming Slice and then hitting OYK again once the CD is up. WH/WE are struggling hard for a place in WBs/cities, believe me I understand that. But if you think letting your kisses proc on all OYK targets will suddenly have WBs begging for WEs to join them....well DG already does that, and there's still not much of a place for WHs in city.

Dragon Gun/OYK aren't the roots or the answers to either of our class's problems.

From what i see WH get taken for their morale drain more so than anything else. WE is taken because you are friends with the lead and the Marauder couldn't be assed to show up. Because they do basically everything we do, except better.

Especially, in Altdorf there are many choke points, where if you can't hit at least the majority of the wb, with your 48ft radius, 30ft range finisher that's a you problem, while we are restrained by the will of the machine spirit, where we can't have more than a single proc in 2s and then have a 1/4 chance to actually proc something, which makes it luck more so than anything else. They hit like something you should be able to proc frequently, but reality is quite different. Kiss of Betrayal is basically useless against players(20ap/2s at best) and Kiss of death basically relies on the other healer being on a bio break.