Lets talk Trivial Blows

[Genisaurus]

I was leeching that conversation too, and since we're talking about it here, I'll reiterate my thoughts:

Of the options you're presenting, I would prefer #6 (I like #2 as well, but IMO that's unrelated to the topic at hand).

1. Changing initiative in this way would not be something we could easily reflect on the client. Users would have no way to determine at any point in time what their actual Crit Damage Reduction equates to, including whatever buffs/debuffs are present.

2. Some classes have more Initiative on their gear than others, like WH/WE, and this change as-is would completely rebalance those classes. CO and SM have slightly more Initative on their gear than other tanks in T4 (Mythic removed a good deal of WS from Sov since they do more Spirit damage), and this gives them an outright buff. If we wanted to preserve the current balance or make changes, we would likely need to change the itemization for many classes across all tiers. Since items are my thing, I'm not toooo happy with this prospect.

3. Aside from two classes who get +100% crit damage with little tradeoff, there are few if any classes who get bonus crit damage without giving something else up (taking a tactic for example, costs a different tactic that you might have slotted instead). Outside of SO/BW, I don't think the problem is that significant, and those classes can be balanced individually much easier.

Spoiler:

Running some numbers, it's hard to find an equation that would scale well, without introducing a new softcap for initiative. Initially I thought

Crit Dam% Reduction = Initiative / (level * 110 / Initiative)

...which scales well at 40, but not so much at lower levels and gets broken at 475 Initiative.

[dkabib]

Here's a suggestion on facing BWs and Sorcs, detaunt them or kill them or cleanse them.

detuant for most classes is 30 ft, BW/Sorc range is 65ft on most spells?

All healers and ranged dps got a 100ft single target detaunt., so thats 50% of the classes.

BW/Sorc, single target spells are mostly, if not all, 100ft.

[dkabib]

I was leeching that conversation too, and since we're talking about it here, I'll reiterate my thoughts:


3. Aside from two classes who get +100% crit damage with little tradeoff, there are few if any classes who get bonus crit damage without giving something else up (taking a tactic for example, costs a different tactic that you might have slotted instead). Outside of SO/BW, I don't think the problem is that significant, and those classes can be balanced individually much easier.

Running some numbers, it's hard to find an equation that would scale well, without introducing a new softcap for initiative.

That's the main issue. +100% crit dmg with NO real tradeoff.

IMO thinking about doing a major overhaul because 2 classes are making things complicated is wrong. Focus on rebalancing those classes instead, either bringing their dps down somehow or by making a tradeoff that really hurts them.

And by that, i'm against trivial blows, it makes playing less optimized classes (see eng / magus for example) as a DPS way too hard.

[Euan]

This is no Sorc or BW discussion guys. I was just stating them as a current _obvious_ example. Once you see Slayers/WHs/WEs/Marauders getting some more crit their dmg will go apeshit as well. Always keep that in mind.

Killing a guarded target is hard enough as is, you really want to nerf damage?

[dkabib]

This is no Sorc or BW discussion guys. I was just stating them as a current _obvious_ example. Once you see Slayers/WHs/WEs/Marauders getting some more crit their dmg will go apeshit as well. Always keep that in mind.

Unfortunately you cannot talk end game dps balance as a whole without touching Sorc/BW.
Yeah melee classes are strong, but at least they're in your face...

[Joshwa70]

Right.. but the melee department deliveri g a crit isn't as easy as firing off a wall or from behing tanks. A melee class reqires a tank for dps delivery where as these rdps are free casting upon them wrecking everything in sight. Getting to them should be rewarded with being able to kill them... not beating on them forever because your crits now hit like a wet noodle. Bomb groups are salivating at tb... as crit goes up.. their effectivness will go down as peoe will pick them off on a string of crits. Passive abilities should not have that much power.

[magter3001]

Here's a suggestion on facing BWs and Sorcs, detaunt them or kill them or cleanse them.

detuant for most classes is 30 ft, BW/Sorc range is 65ft on most spells?

Don't want to troll you but tanks don't have a detaunt, mdps have 30ft detaunt and rdps and healers have 100ft detaunt so MOST classes have a 100 ft detaunt. Most mdps get a guard if there is a tank which helps against any class.

Bw and sorcs are 100ft casters, except for aoe spec of course, while skirmish SH and SW are 65ft without the tactic, but their detaunt is 100ft.

I honestly don't understand the big fuss about ini being too weak with diminishing returns. Sure 20 ini may equal 1 crit but if you don't stack it and a SH puts his ini debuff on you, those 20 ini would give more than 1%

[Euan]

MPDS are the most balanced thing in the game. You cannot go apeshit without having healers and guards focusing you.

[Landaren]

600 damage is now thrown into the category of a little trade off.
600 damage is not a little trade off when most sorcs/bw's are dealing in the 5k hp pool.

[Vdova]

TB should be discussed when T4 is implemented and most ppl will hit 40/80 with full sets. At current state of T3 TB will be game breaking and I dont want to see scenario, when full warband is needed to kill single healing Warrrior priest.

Edit: for lowering crit chance we already have initiative and in future Futile strikes renown passive which reduce chance to get crit up to 24%.