[Black Guard]2H Disparity between IB?

[Gobtar]

Glorified:
1.-(of something or someone ordinary or unexceptional) represented as or appearing more elevated or special than is the case.
"I did the paperwork and was basically a glorified secretary"

What's particularly delicious is this...your commonly held viewpoint on how good the BG CC is, is exactly the reason I used said word...and yes properly. It seems only people who had to play a BG know how unreliable of a CCer you are. On demand CC is just another reason why Chosen/knight are amazing.

[incredible]

Glorified:
1.-(of something or someone ordinary or unexceptional) represented as or appearing more elevated or special than is

How is the only tank with a superpunt, detaunt immunity, choking fury and 5secs kd a glorified cc bot?

Well - considering the chosen also has a superpunt with hastened dismissal, the super punt on the BG is basically "glorified" in that it appears more elevated than it actually is.

Considering the detaunt immunity - per Gobtar - is actually not that useful since the target isn't detaunting you anyways (to be a tank you won't have amazing damage) is basically "glorified" in that it appears more elevated than it actually is.

I can continue this if you want, but I would hope the point is pretty clear.

You should not use all those grown up man words if you dont know what the **** you are talking about mate.

Stay Classy Bloodi.

[bloodi]

Wrong the only healer you would ever "render useless" is rp however a good rp will have no problem out kiting you and you need to stay on an rp to keep up soul killer

So healers without anything to remove cc besides Focusedd mind has no problems outkiting a guy with an on demand snare, alright mate.

the effectiveness of CF by its self falls off late game due to all the + ap potions, +ap gear and potions that inc ap regen rate
it needs to be paired with draining swipes

I dont know if you believe this, think everyone does or anything, i can tell you its not true, i have seen good rps straight up cry wen facing a decent BG.

even then wp can just easily gclense you stuff

Yeah the wp can clease a hex or curse every 5 second, your snare, mind killer and choking fury are all hex, so i guess this magical Wp has 0 cd.

KD at 5s needs block and full resource it is not reliable to have that full duration KD when you need it even with guard, thats why its compensated with 5s

Yes it is, you can claim is not as many times as you want, getting 100 hatred is not some kind of complicated matter, is your usual state if you are in combat any longer than 10 seconds.

And compensated? Lmao, what compensates the IB one then? It doesnt need compensation, is just a better melee kd that any other. I dont think you even grasp the power of extra 2 secs on your kd.

Also Tenton: I appreciate that you can paraphrase my thoughts before I even post

Well if thhose are your thoughts too, i will not bother replying to your post, your thoughts and Tenton ones seem to have their ground in a situation where everything is stacked against the BG while he is alone vs 23 people.

What's particularly delicious is this...your commonly held viewpoint on how good the BG CC is, is exactly the reason I used said word...and yes properly. It seems only people who had to play a BG know how unreliable of a CCer you are. On demand CC is just another reason why Chosen/knight are amazing.

The commonly held viewpoint didnt appear out of nowhere and talking about situations when its not as good doesnt make your idea any more valid.

When a decent group works with the BG has to offer, he is not a "glorified cc bot", he is the best thing since **** sliced bread, no one gives you that punt without a tactic, no one gives you a 5 secs kd, no other tank can make Rps cry.

Classes are not judged for situations where they are not good at, just as we dont judge fishes for their ability to climb trees, we judge them for when they can perform and how they perform in that situation.

Based on that, a bg brings lots of good things to the table, things no other destruction tank can bring.

So what is even more delicious is seeeing you and Tenton try to tell everyone how terrible they are as if we never saw a BG and what they can do before. Come on, as i said, get a **** grip.

I can continue this if you want, but I would hope the point is pretty clear.

Stay Classy Bloodi.

Yeahh its pretty clear, you just said that something that needs a tactic to be as good as the original makes the original glorified and that since Gotbar said something is not good then its not, its pretty clear that you should not talk about things you dont know about, i thought we talked about this already?

And just so you know, classy is my middle name.

[incredible]

i thought we talked about this already?
And just so you know, classy is my middle name.

No - what we talked about is having some forum etiquette and making points without disparaging others. However, based on your subsequent posts, it is clear this was a one-sided conversation.

It is a shame. The rudest one in the room is usually the one with the weakest argument. This thread was no exception.

[Gachimuchi]

On demand snare? You mean the 5ft range one on the class without a gap closer? If the runepriests you play with cant prekite a BG while I can prekite a IB on my DoK they definitley aren't 'good' and should L2P.

The point about being subpar until max mechanic where IB's kd/punt are almost as good and they only need the minimum amount seems to have gone over your head. I suggest rereading some posts.

The best thing since sliced bread? Is that why I never see BG in premades? I could restate the points made about why BG is a subpar tank but from all of your posts that I have read complete refusal to accept any viewpoint other than your own seems to be at the top of your priorities when posting.

[Sulorie]

@bloodi: Keep on arguing and they will call you a troll. They always do.

[Tklees]

Here's Bloodi! Please refrain from the use of foul language. It makes it harder to take you seriously when you are flaming people. This is a request not a directive.

[Gobtar]

Also Tenton: I appreciate that you can paraphrase my thoughts before I even post

Well if thhose are your thoughts too, i will not bother replying to your post, your thoughts and Tenton ones seem to have their ground in a situation where everything is stacked against the BG while he is alone vs 23 people.

no, I am only concerned about value in 6 v 6 or 12 v 12. It just so happened that he was able to ninja me in a couple of cases. Next point.

What's particularly delicious is this...your commonly held viewpoint on how good the BG CC is, is exactly the reason I used said word...and yes properly. It seems only people who had to play a BG know how unreliable of a CCer you are. On demand CC is just another reason why Chosen/knight are amazing.

The commonly held viewpoint didnt appear out of nowhere and talking about situations when its not as good doesnt make your idea any more valid.

When a decent group works with the BG has to offer, he is not a "glorified cc bot", he is the best thing since **** sliced bread, no one gives you that punt without a tactic, no one gives you a 5 secs kd, no other tank can make Rps cry.

Classes are not judged for situations where they are not good at, just as we dont judge fishes for their ability to climb trees, we judge them for when they can perform and how they perform in that situation.

Based on that, a bg brings lots of good things to the table, things no other destruction tank can bring.

So what is even more delicious is seeeing you and Tenton try to tell everyone how terrible they are as if we never saw a BG and what they can do before. Come on, as i said, get a **** grip.

Okay you have some major problems with your arguement; Bandwagoning, and Changing the goalposts are a couple. Never did I say that the BG is solely a CC bot, but in this current meta, with Mara a plenty, the redundancy means certain tools get out shined.

You can make a RPs life hell...but as said time and time again, if you want to catch said RP you need to be on top of him before the battle line gets to him, if that is something you built your group around, fine, but this is not sustainable for a 6 man...Iron Breakers make Dok's cry (and they are closer to the front, so this is much easier to accomplish), except they also do much more than have this one quality.

The CC i do have, I like, but I know its weaknesses, in a combat where a second or two means life and death, you can't afford to wait for your block to come up. When playing defensive, I would rather have consistent CC than not. The BGs CC is most reliable when guarding MDPS and thus in a melee train.

You said that building a group around a BG would make it the greatest thing ever, how far do you have to compromise your groups viability to make the BG shine? You claim the BGs bring a ton of amazing qualities but only bring up CC qualities.

I think BGs are playable tanks, they have all the core abilities that all other tanks have, they have CC skills that require effort but can be made to work, worse still you have been straw-maning my original argument this whole time forcing me to defend my stance on the one quality I think is useful to the BG...in this weird messed up counterpoint. The BG strengths are it's ability to CC HARDER (not better) than other classes, it has internal trade-offs...these traits don't mean the other aspects of the class are fine.

We are looking at the BGs ability to be competitive with other tank choices, which for destro yields it at the bottom of the barrel. And if it so happens that your opinion of me might lead this thread to be spared by your vitriol, please ignore away, I tire of defending my stance from fallacious arguments laced with snide remarks.

[TenTonHammer]

So healers without anything to remove cc besides Focusedd mind has no problems outkiting a guy with an on demand snare, alright mate.


I dont know if you believe this, think everyone does or anything, i can tell you its not true, i have seen good rps straight up cry wen facing a decent BG.


Yeah the wp can clease a hex or curse every 5 second, your snare, mind killer and choking fury are all hex, so i guess this magical Wp has 0 cd.

Yes it is, you can claim is not as many times as you want, getting 100 hatred is not some kind of complicated matter, is your usual state if you are in combat any longer than 10 seconds.

And compensated? Lmao, what compensates the IB one then? It doesnt need compensation, is just a better melee kd that any other. I dont think you even grasp the power of extra 2 secs on your kd.


Well if thhose are your thoughts too, i will not bother replying to your post, your thoughts and Tenton ones seem to have their ground in a situation where everything is stacked against the BG while he is alone vs 23 people.



The commonly held viewpoint didnt appear out of nowhere and talking about situations when its not as good doesnt make your idea any more valid.

When a decent group works with the BG has to offer, he is not a "glorified cc bot", he is the best thing since **** sliced bread, no one gives you that punt without a tactic, no one gives you a 5 secs kd, no other tank can make Rps cry.

Classes are not judged for situations where they are not good at, just as we dont judge fishes for their ability to climb trees, we judge them for when they can perform and how they perform in that situation.

Based on that, a bg brings lots of good things to the table, things no other destruction tank can bring.

So what is even more delicious is seeeing you and Tenton try to tell everyone how terrible they are as if we never saw a BG and what they can do before. Come on, as i said, get a **** grip.

This is not about bg being bad its about 2h bg being sub par and about the class being kinda redundant and kinda underwhelming now in comparison to BO whose stats teal now makes the class feel kinda mandatory in the way that chosen with resists aura kinda feels mandatory

Now on demand snare do you mean the 5ft snare that all tanks have? Or do you mean WoS that you have to go full deftard to get?

If I wanted an AoE snare why not just get Big brawlin whose str debuff can be used hurt the rest of the enemy team and has a bigger uptime?

Now in all of this where is the RPs team? Do they just let the bg chase the rp around all willy nilly? Furthermore you talk about how decent bgs made rps cry yet I have seen good rps use terrain, kiting and pre kiting to make bgs look like a non factor wasting their time in group fights

The fact of the matter is bg need to stay on top of rp which a competent team will not allow to happen
Also you know what is better than CF at making rps life hell? NiDF stopping their flash heals

Now there is a difference between having full resource, maintaining full resource and having full when you block procs on a target and being able to use that kd on a target with no immunities

BG is a selfisht class it dosnt bring much to the table in terms of synergy like IB so it has to put out debuffs and cc

Yet the debuffs it has is made inferior and redundant by mara and iniative stat steal is really too good to pass up combine that too with how good Lookin for opportunity is at removing morale, the class just dosnt feel like a good as a second tank alternative in 6 mans any more granted it dosnt suffer like SM does vs Kotbs+ IB but still

[bloodi]

Okay you have some major problems with your arguement; Bandwagoning, and Changing the goalposts are a couple. Never did I say that the BG is solely a CC bot, but in this current meta, with Mara a plenty, the redundancy means certain tools get out shined.

Oh yeah you never did say that, oh wait:

. As soon as you throw a mara into the mix, you are basically a glorified CC/guard bot.

But yeah, its me changing the goalposts, its me the one who throws exagerations that have no basis on reality then pretends he never did.

You can make a RPs life hell...but as said time and time again, if you want to catch said RP you need to be on top of him before the battle line gets to him

Or you could superpunt their healing targets so he has to come to you but lets forget about that since it makes your argument pointless right?

Iron Breakers make Zealots cry, except they also do much more than have this one quality.

Iron breakers are cleansable by zealots, they just affect doks, they are also unable to ap drain them, just healdebuff them. So they dont even have that quality.

The CC i do have, I like, but I know its weaknesses, in a combat where a second or two means life and death, you can't afford to wait for your block to come up. When playing defensive, I would rather have consistent CC than not. The BGs CC is most reliable when guarding MDPS and thus in a melee train.

For someone who claims to be all about 6vs6 and 12vs12 and thinks all about that, you seem to lack the basic knowledge about how a 6 man group works, TTK is often talked about not because people dies 3 seconds after the fight starts, its because people dies in 3 seconds when the window to do so pops up, when talking about the BG, such window is usually when the BG tells his group he know can KD.

Hell, you seem to be mixing fights within competitive groups and a premade fighting pugs for how you talk, no fight is decided on the first 5 seconds or 20 when two good groups collide.

You said that building a group around a BG would make it the greatest thing ever, how far do you have to compromise your groups viability to make the BG shine?

Not very far and surely not far enough to not be compensated by what he brings even if you like to claim otherwise.

I think BGs are playable tanks, they have all the core abilities that all other tanks have, they have CC skills that require effort but can be made to work, worse still you have been straw-maning my original argument this whole time forcing me to defend my stance on the one quality I think is useful to the BG...in this weird messed up counterpoint. The BG strengths are it's ability to CC HARDER (not better) than other classes, it has internal trade-offs...these traits don't mean the other aspects of the class are fine.

No, it just means you have been ignoring the good parts to only point out the bad parts in order to portray a skewed view on the viability of the BG, i mean, when you only point situations where they are bad and refuse to talk about how good they are on others, is not me straw manning you, is you being partisan.

We are looking at the BGs ability to be competitive with other tank choices, which for destro yields it at the bottom of the barrel. And if it so happens that your opinion of me might lead this thread to be spared by your vitriol, please ignore away, I tire of defending my stance from fallacious arguments laced with snide remarks.

I am pretty sure i never mentioned a single thing about you, i dont think i ever saw you play, mostly because i dont tend to pay attention to anyone names, what i did however was tell you to stop being partisan and telling half truths, which seems to be all the base for your argumentation on the bg, in this very same quote you go and say they are the bottom of the barrel, which is, to be honest, a laughable statement. Is even more funny that you go on and say you are "tired of defeding my stance from fallacious arguments with snide remarks.

Because after all, thats is a well documented fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well

This is not about bg being bad its about 2h bg being sub par and about the class being kinda redundant and kinda underwhelming now in comparison to BO whose stats teal now makes the class feel kinda mandatory in the way that chosen with resists aura kinda feels mandatory
l

No, its not about 2h anymore, you know that, you already pages ago stepped in the realm of "BG is the worst tank in the game" and continue to claim it post after post.

And i say this because i would fully agree with the BG 2h being subpar to the IB, hell, everyone 2h is subpar to the IB version but you are talking about the super punt, detaunt immunity and so on being bad, you already went from an agreeable position to a straight up partisan and biased one.