Solution to mele WP/DoK

[peterthepan3]

I only managed to test the Wrath DPS as a pure DPS class, but after having tested all of the melee specs I do believe there may be some validity to the claims that the class is overperforming as of this minute in terms of being able to function as a DPS and healer with the same spec/gear.

I am all for making the classes able to function as a DPS as that is how the classes were designed (with the option of going DPS) - provided that the healing potential is severely limited (as mentioned above, confined to a heal that they can use every so often). Wrath WP and DPS DOK has crazy burst potential, but even if you don't spec very highly into the melee heal trees you can still pump out insane healing - provided the player is competent. There ought to be more of a barrier enforced between being able to perform the role of either DPS, heal, or melee healer. A 30 second CD does facilitate somewhat to this, but there can be no denying that a competent player can provide some insane DPS whilst being able to switch to Grace/Sacrifice prayers and provide equally good heals - all in one spec.

In retrospect, I think perhaps more should be done to separate DPS from melee heal so as to ensure there isn't as much crossover as there currently is, lest other DPS classes be rendered null simply because of all a DPS DOK/WP can now bring - in one package. This isn't a whine post or anything of the sort, and I strongly believe that the changes have been done with the best intent (and love the DPS changes); just more finetuning and balancing is needed so that the class isn't a master-of-all-trades.

I like Aza's aforementioned suggestions. If you're playing the class as a DPS, then your melee healing potential ought to be limited exponentially; you pick one or the other.

[adei]

I dont See a solution that dok and wp have The Option to switch from dps to heal.... Ever class has three trees and Not one class can do both Things effektiv.. Wy dok wp have to? Its not a on wtf post i Just Cant understand it AT The Moment. Mayb some of the devs most like aza can explain IT to me. Cause mostly i understand his Post

I really do not understand why people find this so hard to believe, many posts about DoK being top damage and healing, well what if I told you that this happened long before this change was made? I could show you countless screenshots of this, same with any decent WP. The thing that has changed is the reliability of the healing. Lets look at this way for example

Shaman backline healing vs melee dok healing ( lets use a scenario as an example since everyone is so hooked on the numbers ) where a shaman must cast his aoe group heal, a dok can instantly do this with TE, so if somebody takes some small dot damage, the DoK will instantly be able to heal it compared to the shaman, this is just padding numbers. Ask yourself how relevant the healing is compared to what is actually just a padded stat. Same goes for the damage, aoe dot, EL, devour- padded damage.

It is strong in melee of course, however there is so much range available that has cc to kite them in order to prevent them from healing, and frontal cc that you can use in order to do so. If a DoK/WP is pumping out some crazy healing numbers, chances are hes sacrificing 'relevant' damage in order to do so. Same goes if a DoK/WP is pumping out some crazy damage, they are sacrificing any relevant/reliable healing.

The new hotfix to address detaunt/challenge/absorbs has helped to further lower the healing, you need to learn to adapt to this, see a WP/DoK coming at you to leech ? detaunt him and it will hurt, get your tank to challenge him so hes forced to smack the tank to remove it, etc etc.

[peterthepan3]

I could be wrong, but I think the majority of people's complaints stem from the class's ability to go either DPS or melee heal with the same spec. Even if you don't take the improved SR/TE tactics, its undefendable and fixed healing coefficient nature means you are providing very good heals. Some solution as Aza mentioned to prevent the relative ease of doing this would be a good thing to do, I think (more penalties for changing your prayer or something)

EDIT: I didn't read the new changes re melee healing. This should hopefully serve to alleviate some of these concerns.

[jorgemarco]

Because AM/SM are ranged dps with light armor and dont get the benefit of melee trains. Their mechanic are different and no one feeling they are a nightmare.

[Vdova]

I really like new mechanics but should agree that in current situation doks/wps can play both roles at the same time: healers and dps. I think they need a solution which will separate this rolls: you are only healing with low dmg or dealing dmg with low healing.
Maybe if they play as melee healers they have low dmg but when they play dps they still have high heals. Pretty unbalanced if you ask me.
Just imo

I dont know what are You talking about sir.
Yes I have seen some doks doing massive numbers in pug scenarios with result off: 25k dmg/75k healing or 65k dm/20k healing. I am not joking. What else do you want?

I think pure torture dok cannot press so much healin thanks to constant essence loosing, which force them spam torture skills(they do dmg only), and rotate rend soul/transfer essence verry rarely.

[Daknallbomb]

I dont See a solution that dok and wp have The Option to switch from dps to heal.... Ever class has three trees and Not one class can do both Things effektiv.. Wy dok wp have to? Its not a on wtf post i Just Cant understand it AT The Moment. Mayb some of the devs most like aza can explain IT to me. Cause mostly i understand his Post

I really do not understand why people find this so hard to believe, many posts about DoK being top damage and healing, well what if I told you that this happened long before this change was made? I could show you countless screenshots of this, same with any decent WP. The thing that has changed is the reliability of the healing. Lets look at this way for example

Shaman backline healing vs melee dok healing ( lets use a scenario as an example since everyone is so hooked on the numbers ) where a shaman must cast his aoe group heal, a dok can instantly do this with TE, so if somebody takes some small dot damage, the DoK will instantly be able to heal it compared to the shaman, this is just padding numbers. Ask yourself how relevant the healing is compared to what is actually just a padded stat. Same goes for the damage, aoe dot, EL, devour- padded damage.

It is strong in melee of course, however there is so much range available that has cc to kite them in order to prevent them from healing, and frontal cc that you can use in order to do so. If a DoK/WP is pumping out some crazy healing numbers, chances are hes sacrificing 'relevant' damage in order to do so. Same goes if a DoK/WP is pumping out some crazy damage, they are sacrificing any relevant/reliable healing.

The new hotfix to address detaunt/challenge/absorbs has helped to further lower the healing, you need to learn to adapt to this, see a WP/DoK coming at you to leech ? detaunt him and it will hurt, get your tank to challenge him so hes forced to smack the tank to remove it, etc etc.

Aww u get me wrong... Looks like its my english. I dont have a wp or DoK i Just want an answer to the question is a dok or wp now able to heal a grp effektiv and can do dps effektiv? Both without change skills taktic and so on. I love to See wp and dok As Front line healer But If they can Front line heal effektiv like other healer they dont need to Make effektiv dps. I undertand hybrid where chars can be a lil Bit of both. But rly effektiv in both Make no sense. I Just read what ppl write dont have a PC for one Weak. So isst true that they can be effektiv on both AT The Same time like other Toons are effektiv AT dps or heal?

[Sigimund]

I must be doing something wrong. When I melee heal in SCs my damage scores are super low, like defensive tank low. Also, the stance dancing makes the gameplay a lot more tactical than it was before.

[Telen]

The changes arent the issue. Its giving them a place in the melee train which were already pretty dominant.

[Morf]

The problem for me is they can be a pure dps, a pure healer and a lifetap dps healer(semi tank) all during combat without the need to respec or change gear(granted yes there is a cd on changing prayers/covenants), this isnt a game like ESO where every class can fill any role just by switching loadouts, just like every other class the role you choose should be the role you play until you respec.

The balance between being a useful/good melee healer and a useless/op melee healer is a fine line, i would say mdps heal dok pre experimental is where it should be and i believe (without being hugely experienced with dps dok or dps wp) taking what made dps dok viable as a 2nd dps or a dps healer and gradually mirroring to dps wp would of been a smother and less drastic approach to making mdps healer a viable option with also some minor changes to back line dok/wp easymode healing.

When i have played my shaman as a lifetap healer (as bad as that is) i had less dps then other dps classes and less heals then proper healers, this is the trade off you take, currently i see experienced dok's/wp's being top dps and top heals at the same time this is op.
Would be interesting to see the effectiveness of a 2 tank, 4 mdps heal wp/dok group

[Arbich]

Change Martyrs Blessing to something like sigmars radiance+grace of sigmar is now.
Lower the amount of healing from sigmars radiance.
Change grace of sigmar to a tactic that buffs divine assault (maybe nerf basic divine assault a bit)

The possible skill-trees will look a bit strange then (melee-heal-ability in range tree), but I think it would then be practically impossible for dps-wp to change in heal-mode with simply swapping prayer.