[Magus, Engineer] Buff like in never released patch 1.4.9

[Sulorie]

About what armor levels we are talking? You act like sov armor values are too high.

[Morf]

Deal with the root of the problem. I know it's less painful and controversial for everyone to slap a band-aid on Engineer by giving it a tactic to sidestep the armor stacking problem - but all you're doing is creating an unbalanced, must-have tactic to deal with that problem. It's not the way.

There are must have tactics for all classes which when not used you may see a similar thing to what we are debating here, i dont see that being a problem or reason why this wouldnt work, being a 11+1 skill it would only be available at higher ranks where engi rifle damage struggles, not in lower tiers where it isnt as much of a problem. I wouldnt call piercing bite a band-aid fix tactic and on maras that tactic is always slotted where as engi's would have to be spec into rifle to benefit.

Root of the problem, armor stacking ? if it changed to not be so beneficial for certain classes which for me is only with wp/dok they will just stack toughness and things wont change much.

[Coryphaus]

About what armor levels we are talking? You act like sov armor values are too high.

sov + armor tallis and pots n stuff

[Sulorie]

About what armor levels we are talking? You act like sov armor values are too high.

sov + armor tallis and pots n stuff

Who is stacking armor? Healers, some tanks and deftard dd's who deal no damage.
All others have at best an average armor rating. Add armor debuff + penetration and the effective armor is not worth to mention.
Learn to pick the right targets.

[grumcajs]

must have tactics are bad? so u plan to remove ignite resist debuff, boiling blood dmg, piercing bite, dirty tricks, wild gambit, crippling strikes, IB/BG outgoing heal debuff, +50% crit dmg tactics, grp cleanse, etc. ones too?

problem with engi is their entrench playstyle. while SW can AA on move, cast abilities on move, engi is forced to stand the ground to deal any dmg. and for that he has to focus on WS unless he choose to deal dmg only to sorc, wot rulez choppas and WEs

if u stack WS u are kinda soft target and unlike other 2 rdps, engi do not have tools to gtfo and be mobile

[Azarael]

Regarding must-have tactics: I'm surprised I have to explain this, but a must-have tactic is overpowered, because it's a must-have tactic. You MUST run it, therefore it's better than the other tactics you have. This is as elementary as A = A, but as it's a class internal balance issue, people are overlooking it.

Must-have tactics would be better served by simply removing the extra tactic slot and adding the tactic's effect as a passive to the class. At least then we'd all know where we stood.

Regarding armor values: I haven't played in T4 for years so I'm not even going to try to argue the point. I'd rather wait until we get to T4 ourselves, where I won't have to - for better or worse.

[Sulorie]

Well, melee dd must take the crit dmg tactics too, if available.
E.g. speccing something else than kd and crit tactic on WE/WH is absurd.

[foof]

Regarding must-have tactics: I'm surprised I have to explain this, but a must-have tactic is overpowered, because it's a must-have tactic. You MUST run it, therefore it's better than the other tactics you have. This is as elementary as A = A, but as it's a class internal balance issue, people are overlooking it.

Must-have tactics would be better served by simply removing the extra tactic slot and adding the tactic's effect as a passive to the class. At least then we'd all know where we stood.

Regarding armor values: I haven't played in T4 for years so I'm not even going to try to argue the point. I'd rather wait until we get to T4 ourselves, where I won't have to - for better or worse.

This would essentially mean the entire tactic system would need to be reworked, and a lot of strong tactics would need to be adjusted downwards, and even more weak ones upwards.

It would be for the best overall, I agree with you there, but it would be a massive amount of balancing work.

The real problem is the disparity in tactic effectiveness. Some tactics (lets take a 50% crit damage increase tactic for instance) are insanely good, while the vast majority of them are just "alright". There is essentially a top tier of tactics for every class, and that tends to be about 4-8 of them at most. The rest are either so situational they almost never see use, or pure garbage.

[Vdova]

Which issue of magus/engineer are talking about now?
Is it engineer physical tree or is it magus/engineer mobility/cc?

Because back on live I have played engineer rifleman tree and with stacking weapon sklil by talismans and RR points I had nice 500 or 600 weapon sklil(with ws/bs tactic). Combined with armor debuff from turret, on light/medium targets dmg was more than solid. Issue was lack of A) ranged snare/KD B) heal debuff, but that was job of SW or BW.
I would say Grenadier/tinkerer set was more potent, but require medium range and stack for defensive stats.
If people complain about they need to stack weapon sklil talismans and weapon sklil renown points, all ranged physical had to do it(SW,SH). And Yes, Magus has magic dmg, but his dmg formula is different(No weapon DPS included) and has no morale(Morale 2) to increase his dmg

So I would point the discussion from dmg issues only to mobility/cc/dmg issues.
It is my personel opinion, that since both pets(turret,horror) are only stacionary pets in game, they should be casted instantly.
The reason for this is also fact, that they are verry often used to AOE knockdown, which leads to loosing the pet and loosing 20% dmg which is more than noticable.

For those who dont play the class explanation is this: You see the enemy, you get in range You have to spend first 2 seconds to summon pet, but worst is You need to be stacionary which leads to A) Your target will run out of the range during those 2 seconds B) Your target get to melee range during those 2 seconds casting. Than if u use AOE knockdown, You blow up Your pet and You have to repeat the proces again(stay in place, 2 second casting)

One can say hey, why You bother with the turret/horror than? play without them. Answer is loosing 20% dmg buff from pet and pet debuffs+dmg is like loosing 30-40% of your dmg which makes even DPS healers more viable.

Increasing the stagger duration from 3s to 5-6s should be the point of open debate same as decreasing cooldown of recall turret/horror from 20s to 10s.

I know all of that will never give the open mobility of other RDPS classes including DPS healers, but it will definitely help to be more in touch with rvr/sc combat which moves a lot from side to side.

And again DMG. Some of engi/magus dots has too long cooldowns when theyr dmg/effect potential is considered. For example signal flare/withered soul. Decreasing its cooldown to 10-15s will be also more than reasonable.

[Vdova]

I would start with mirroring keg to magus, because its one of the best utility engineer can offer to his realm.

No, thanks, Aegis of Orange fire is much better than it. Healing for 250 once in 3 seconds don't do any help to realm, it will only give you RR for healing.

It is 250 hp every 3 seconds for 30 seconds if no tick crit. It is 250 x 10 = 2500 hp for 30 seconds. With some crits it can be 3000+ hp in 30 seconds. It is not only for engineer, but for everyone in range.

Try to image 4-5 engineers in a zerg run this. Its 1k-1,25k hp(no crits)every 3 seconds for everyone in range. Thats huge isnt it?

Now compare it to 1500 hp self heal each 60 seconds.... Isnt it joke? Btw single RvR healing pot can do the same.