How is WL in games current stage

[Jaycub]

It varies game to game genre to genre as well. Dota 2 is definitely balanced at the "pro" level, which leads to some interesting trends in the different skill brackets. Certain heros that are considered OP in the lower skill brackets are never picked in the higher ones. A lot of the time this is because their main counter happens to be good communication or deep game knowledge, or possibly just good habits long term players have. Yet it has a really healthy player base.

Dota is also definitely balanced around captains mode, and not all pick. That is to say team composition and counter picking are extremely important to the game (yet the majority of players just pick whatever hero they feel like).

Touching back on collecting data on balance, dota has the benifit of this really amazing site, which you can see all kinds of trends, sorted by patch etc... that really gives you a good idea what changes are doing on whole. A lot of the buffs/nerfs from the recent patch are reflected quite well in the W/L trends. If only warhammer had this :^)

[Tesq]

that skill totally make sense cos it's the mirror of choppa outcomming heal debuff, that skill should not be touch, another one should inc heal debeuff.

What about make ponuce a heal debuff also and give it 10 sec coldown (haters gona hate)

edit: it would be somethign like this
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=wl; ... 3:;0:0:0:0:

with 2 heal debuff

How about you stop talking about things you don't understand (balance, class mirrors)?

how about you stop taking seriusly a post that was only half serius :/

[Tesq]

I think the major problems with these types of threads is that some people don't understand how a game should be balanced in the first place. IMO a game should always be balanced at the highest level of play, and around the most important game mode.

It's tricky in this game, because compared to most it is technically casual, tab targeting combat does not allow for individual skill to really shine and it is extremely hard for one player to "carry" or make a major difference. The game is very much a team based game, and based around 6 man groups. Meaning balance should reflect that, and sometimes no matter what you do to a class without making it blatantly OP isn't going to have an effect on 6 man comps. I really think you need to look into things like guard, certain group utility being brought to the table from buffs/debuffs from other classes, and healing in general.

yea nice try change it with 24 man wb and it could sound resonable

seriusly the data all around telling you that the game is not dev for 6 man,

first the buff that works out of party like hold the line , challenge, aoe out of party heals.

if the buff like auras were moved from out of party to party was for balance reason not cos the game is development to 6vs 6.

The auras meccanics itself the fact that tank can be so durable its cos they need to be able to witstand a terrible damage in front lines that can only happen in mass vs mass fight.

[Coryphaus]

This game is or rather should be balanced towards the 6 man enviorment

You cannot balance for 1v1 and you cannot balance for 24v24 wb enviorment

[Jaycub]

yea nice try change it with 24 man wb and it could sound resonable

You left this out

There is also going to be people who say that warhammer isn't a 6v6 game only, but is ORvR focused and should be balanced around larger groups, or even that the game should be balanced at all levels from 1v1 to 24v24 etc... but that would be an impossible task.

And I never said that those people were wrong, I think in this game it is pretty subjective and will vary a lot from person to person. To create the best atmosphere for scenario it would be 6v6 or on the 6 man level. I guess the question that has to be asked is what is more important in WAR, ORvR or SC's? Or does that matter? And would 6 man balance also lead to good balance in larger scale fights?

[bloodi]

As i play it too i dont agree that dota is balanced only around the pro level, there is plenty of buffs and nerfs that are pub based, you think they would remove Ancients farming on Necrophos based on pro level?

Dota would be a perfect example of a game that doesnt rely on pro level balance, that is why the game is healthy, when something aggravates the playerbase it gets changed but also always try to wait for the metagame to adjust itself (dota has only 2 major patches a year just for that reason)


Problem is as you said Dota is able to track a lot of data for its developers to analyze and while no one with a brain would think IO is a bad hero for its 40% win rate it does certainly give a good way to analyze what is going wrong, i doubt we can do the same here in War, scenarios win rates of certain comps against others would be a great stat imo.

[Tesq]

To create the best atmosphere for scenario it's the same as to create the same atmosphere for orvr , less op aoe/group skills, more variety in party composition, this have nothing to do with sc or orvr.
IF a sorc can do 300k damage on sc (almost done it today with vith) hardly a magus will do better in rvr when there are even more cleanse.

Things work in sc as they work in rvr.

you would have right if the party composition of sc and orvr would be different but it's not.


chosen/kobs x1 must
dok/wp x 1 must

then melee train or bomb party and pots for kite.>

IF balance changes would be aimed to make classes swapable the overall situation of the party composition would be more enjoyable. Thats said of course there are some things that need to be restricted to party and balance insdie party and some that need to be balanced in vs 24 ppl. But this is only in regard of a the balance x skill aspect of the game and nto regard how the game should be balance about.

[Jaycub]

Problem is as you said Dota is able to track a lot of data for its developers to analyze and while no one with a brain would think IO is a bad hero for its 40% win rate it does certainly give a good way to analyze what is going wrong, i doubt we can do the same here in War, scenarios win rates of certain comps against others would be a great stat imo.

To do that properly the devs would have to setup a test server with instant maxed characters and gear and have events where people are asked to form certain group compositions and que up. Get data and feedback from that.

But I don't feel like we have the population to really support that, you would really need a large test base.

Also about the necro nerf ya, you got me on that one. I was watching purges analysis on the patch yesterday while getting freenown on the order gravy train and thought that was funny. I actually had mixed results with those necros tho, some of them got like 12 minute blink and just destroyed the side lanes early game, others farmed for 30 minutes while we got pooped on.

[bloodi]

To do that properly the devs would have to setup a test server with instant maxed characters and gear and have events where people are asked to form certain group compositions and que up. Get data and feedback from that.

But I don't feel like we have the population to really support that, you would really need a large test base.

Nah i just meant if they are able to parse scs, since every sc gives stats to the players, it should pass through the servers also, so if we were able to track those stats it would be amazing.

Afaik that is all dotabuff does, track the replay stats for every game and have an api to show them.

Also about the necro nerf ya, you got me on that one. I was watching purges analysis on the patch yesterday while getting freenown on the order gravy train and thought that was funny. I actually had mixed results with those necros tho, some of them got like 12 minute blink and just destroyed the side lanes early game, others farmed for 30 minutes while we got pooped on.

The only thing i hated was randoming necro (i am one of those than randoms every game) and being told to go ancients as if it was any good, it was terrible, if they were in the opposing team and i caught wind of it, gank them at minute 4 for a free ancients and first blood, if they were on my team pray the other team is stupid enough to not realize it.

Usually it was just a 0-3 necro going to offlane to leech exp because he failed.

[Coryphaus]

Furthermore it is false to say that trench tier pumbstompers in dota don’t get played in competitive or are a “problem in competitive level of play”

Unless you’ve already forgotten the cancers that was HOHO HAHA of 6.83 and Bugatti seeker in 6.84

And was hated by all