Poll: BOs and SMs

[Tesq]

Another thing to consider when buffing SM is the type of buff/debuffs that seem to be the most valuable are all inclusive.

The knights 15% increased healing for group does not discriminate against non-direct heals, while most similar mechanics seem to do so. Their tactic "dirty tricks" is beneficial to everyone in your party, where as most if not all other similar tactics (even their other 10% tactic) discriminates against heal crit.

The knight is a good tank to have no matter what your group composition is.

The IB on the other hand seems to be specialized in buffing and assisting a physical DPS, with armor debuffs, str and ws buffs etc...

Maybe SM could be buffed in such a way to specialize in buffing casters, or classes that deal non physical damage? So that if you where building a meta group around say a BW you would consider a SM the better choice over an IB.

BO it's a melee support tank / SM it's (should be ) a magic tank just like chosen is.

Just some thoughts and it's already a stretch with the SM theme, and probably won't port over well to the BO.

SM alredy is a caster tank, it's resistence debuff debuff the auras value totaly, add a 20% damage more for every magic damage in partys (while after 1.3.6 auras debuff half of their buff value). Also with SM double stack spiritual debuff he can totaly reduce on a not tank a resistence to 0, of course problem is it's spiritual and not elemental.
So the only class that benefith from him it's dps AM and itself ( and wl for 1-2 skills?)

[feefy1]

Spoiler:

Ok heres some suggestions that ill throw out here and see what yall like; I know nothing really of sm so ill stick to BlOrc suggestions:

Tuffer N Nails buffs all grp mates armor or atleasts buffs defensive targets armor as well

Allow Da greenest to increase all resistances on hit, additionally allow it to (either 1):
A. while active reduce the critical dmg you and your grp mates take is reduced/or have reduced chance to be critically hit
B. Allow it to unlike chosen resist aura stack with other resists like chosen aura, and morks buffer

3. Rock Ard should also affect your defensive target or your whole grp

4. Mor Hardcore should be changed to a super punt tied to YMM cause the cd on that is 20s like most other super punts in the game

5. WAAGH should either debuff all resists or debuff spiritual and stacks with other resist debuffs, could also tie reduced cit mechanic here like suggested

6.We Iz Bigger changed to buff grp mates or defensive targets (pick one, or some):
A.Str
B.Ws
C.Block
D.Parry
E.Iniative
F.Chance to crit
G.Reduced chance to be crit/or amount of critical dmg
I. Toughness ( allow that to stack with m2 )


7.You Missed Me can now be proc’d with either block or parry

I sense many BO aficionados.
Where are the SM theorycrafters hiding?
Anyone that could chime in with numbers/proposals on the SM future?

[Genisaurus]

Spoiler:

Ok heres some suggestions that ill throw out here and see what yall like; I know nothing really of sm so ill stick to BlOrc suggestions:

Tuffer N Nails buffs all grp mates armor or atleasts buffs defensive targets armor as well

Allow Da greenest to increase all resistances on hit, additionally allow it to (either 1):
A. while active reduce the critical dmg you and your grp mates take is reduced/or have reduced chance to be critically hit
B. Allow it to unlike chosen resist aura stack with other resists like chosen aura, and morks buffer

3. Rock Ard should also affect your defensive target or your whole grp

4. Mor Hardcore should be changed to a super punt tied to YMM cause the cd on that is 20s like most other super punts in the game

5. WAAGH should either debuff all resists or debuff spiritual and stacks with other resist debuffs, could also tie reduced cit mechanic here like suggested

6.We Iz Bigger changed to buff grp mates or defensive targets (pick one, or some):
A.Str
B.Ws
C.Block
D.Parry
E.Iniative
F.Chance to crit
G.Reduced chance to be crit/or amount of critical dmg
I. Toughness ( allow that to stack with m2 )


7.You Missed Me can now be proc’d with either block or parry

I sense many BO aficionados.
Where are the SM theorycrafters hiding?
Anyone that could chime in with numbers/proposals on the SM future?

You want me to spitball ideas? Here's a ton of ideas; pick any (but obviously not all) of the below, and do similar things for BOs:

1. Grypon’s Lash now has a 10 second cool-down and will disarm the target for 4 seconds.
2. Gusting Wind now requires Improved Balance, shifts to Perfect Balance, and costs 45 Action Points. It is no longer an AoE knockback, but is now an AoE interrupt.
   1. Whispering Wind will no longer interrupt enemies.
3. Blurring Shock’s damage value for its secondary affect has been increased.
4. The Deep Incision’s damage value for Quick Incision has been decreased, but this value will trigger every half second the target is moving instead of applying a DoT. This effect will still last 10 seconds.
5. Phoenix Wing no longer requires a target and has a 10 second cool-down. This ability will now be a a 15ft. cleave with a medium-range knockback.
6. Whirling Geyser has had its damage value increased and will now knockdown all enemies hit for 3 seconds.
7. Eagle’s Flight has had the duration of its buff increased to 10 seconds.
8. Intimidating Blow now requires a shield. It no longer drains morale, but will now decrease the chance the target will critically hit by 10% for 10 seconds.
   1. Lingering Intimidation is now available at mastery rank 11 of the Vaul tree and it will now cause Intimidating blow to increase the target's chance to be critically hit by 10% for 10 seconds.
   2. Vaul’s Buffer is now available at mastery rank 7 of the Vaul tree
9. Dragon’s Talon has had its debuff increased to 6 seconds.
   1. Dampening Talon’s additional effect for Dragon's Talon has had its duration increased to 6 seconds.
10. Phantom's Blade will now apply its absorb bubble to the entire party
11. Wall of Darting Steel will now increase your chance to Dodge, Disrupt and Parry attacks by 25%, and whenever you defend against an attack you will reflect back 121 Spirit damage. Party members up to 30ft. behind you will have their chance to Dodge and Disrupt attacks increased by 15%
12. Bolstering Enchantments will now instantly heal your group, its heal-over-time has been eliminated.
13. Shadow Blades has had its damage-over-time effect reduced to 10 seconds and will now cause all enemies affected to lose 20 Action Points per second for 10 seconds.
14. Adept Movements will now restore 40 Action Points over 3 seconds when a Blade Enchantment triggers, this effect will not proc more than once every 5 seconds.
15. Ensorcelled Agony additional damage-over-time effect for Ensorcelled Blow has been reduced to 3 seconds.
16. Potent Enchantments has had the duration of the additional damage-over-time effect for Blade Enchantments reduced to 3 seconds.
17. Poised Attacks will now cause all critical hits to deal 25% more damage.
18. Sapping Strike now drains AP from the target, giving it to the Swordmaster

[Azarael]

Sapping Strike now drains AP from the target, giving it to the Swordmaster

I won't comment on the others, but I've been thinking about this one recently (BO has a mirror of it as well.)

Perhaps it should steal AP for the SM/BO's defensive target.

[Penril]

Sapping Strike now drains AP from the target, giving it to the Swordmaster

I won't comment on the others, but I've been thinking about this one recently (BO has a mirror of it as well.)

Perhaps it should steal AP for the SM/BO's defensive target.

I really like this. This is what i think so far:

- SMs need a little love in Khaine's tree, specially since they will be able to spec this (http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=sm; ... 7:;0:0:0:0:) which is a pretty solid group/solo build. Buff Sapping Strike and Phoenix's wings and you are done imho.

- BOs need a little love in their Toughest/Boss spec. Last patch only buffed the (future) Brawler/Toughest spec. Buff WAAAGH and Can't Hit me! and you are done imho.

Suggestion:

- Change Sapping Strike like you suggested; it doesn't need to be mirrored to BOs since they already have a buff on defensive target skill (FML) while SMs don't.
- Change Can't hit me! so you are able to move at your regular speed while using it.
- Buff Phoenix's Wings and WAAAGH! so they give a nice AoE group buff OR a useful AoE debuff on enemies. For example, change the debuff on WAAAGH to armor instead of corporeal. Do the same thing for PW.

Done. Let's move to the next mirror classes.

[Azarael]

- Change Sapping Strike like you suggested; it doesn't need to be mirrored to BOs since they already have a buff on defensive target skill (FML) while SMs don't.

This'd be my only issue. If both abilities cost 5 points and are mirrors of one another, they should both be equally powerful. If BO has the same issue of players not bothering to spec Arm Breaka because it's not worth it, then not changing their version of it's also a problem.

You could buff Sapping Strike and move it up with Phoenix's Wing, but then you have the only decent platform for an AoE debuff for SM at 5pts, which is too limiting.

[Penril]

- Change Sapping Strike like you suggested; it doesn't need to be mirrored to BOs since they already have a buff on defensive target skill (FML) while SMs don't.

This'd be my only issue. If both abilities cost 5 points and are mirrors of one another, they should both be equally powerful. If BO has the same issue of players not bothering to spec Arm Breaka because it's not worth it, then not changing their version of it's also a problem.

Aight, then change Arm breaka too

I suggested not changing in for two reasons:

1) BOs have one buff on defensive target (FML). SMs don't.
2) BOs and SMs should still be similar but different.

Keep in mind this is coming from someone who mains a BO. I play SM when i solo but when it is premade time i bring the Orc.

Other option would be to buff Arm Breaka in a different way. Don't make it drain AP, just increase the removed AP. Instead of removing 50 over 5 seconds make it 60 or 70. SMs can get the AP drain on defensive target.

[Azarael]

That sounds better.

[grumcajs]

Problem with BO and especially with SM is similar to engi and magus - they are great as 7th member of a party but do not fit well to 90% setups (even worse for SMs cuz BOs atleast fit pretty well to mdps heavy grps)

On order side its pretty obvious. Slayers do not use spirit dmg...WLs have to use tactic to benefit from SM debuffs and buffs and dps AMs are well....dps AMs.

Problem is kotbs and chosen bring grp support and buffs/debuffs while IBs are excelent for ST buffs and debuffs and brings outgoing heal debuff that cannot be cleansed by doks. There is really not need for other setup than kotb+IB no matter what.

Look on kotbs - their best build give them almost invulnerability to dmg, they provide grp wide buffs via auras, 10% crit for whole grp (even heals), 15% incoming healing, aoe snare, superpunt

While IB comes to the play to fill the holes - armor debuff, crit debuff, heal debuff, ST str+massive WP buff, armor buff, parry buff, solid punt

SM has nothing more to offer - random stat steal that do not stack with auras, unstoppable for 4 sec, dragons talon outgoing dmg reduction for 4 sec, dazzling strike cast time increase

I think it should be balanced from stance pov - while other classes can bring support for less effort, why not improve SM stance abilities?

Dazzling Strike - perfect stance, increase cast time by 50% for 5 sec AND interrupt (5 sec cd)
Dragons Talon - perfect stance, reduce outgoing dmg by 20% AND crit chance by 20%
Eagles Flight - improved stance, increased parry AND disrupt by 25% for 5 secs

While balancing kotbs by making it grp buff/debuff - er? - remove superpunt, remove kd, let them stagger while giving some kotb/ib style goodies to SM? (reworking some tactics for instance etc.)

[Jaycub]

Well if SM is only good at buffing DPS AM, maybe we should just... buff DPS AM so SM gets indirectly buffed and becomes meta :^)

This is obviously the solution that has been hiding in front of us this whole time.