Followup to the roadmap

[Bozzax]

Or you are wrong

[Bankei]

All of these threads assume that changes to the campaign will change player behaviour and therefore create a "better" RvR experience.

What evidence is there that RvR mechanic changes will change player behaviour this way?

If you take the current campaign mechanics as they're intended, the current system fulfils all the desires you have for the campaign.

Let's pretend I'm a dev posting the new RvR BO system for the first time:

Battlefield Objective Overhaul

The new BO mechanic:

Each BO spawns supplies that have to be taken to the war camp or a keep, and each supply handed in adds to the keep's supply total. Each time a certain threshold of supplies is reached, your keep gains a rank. If supplies are handed in for a certain period of time, any supplies building to the next keep rank will be lost.

These supply boxes will spawn faster the more BOs that are held, and the higher the rank of your keep, the more BOs that must be held for any supplies to spawn.

When handed in, supplies give renown and a good chunk of weekly campaign contribution and zone contribution.

The supplies have a large visual indicator as to who is carrying them, so the enemy can easily spot supply runners. They are on a 6minute timer, so players can't hoard supplies and have to keep moving

The results of the mechanic overhaul:

BOs will become the main focus of each zone and will spread players throughout the map as they battle to secure BOs for themselves and deprive the enemy of them. As keeps gain ranks, holding BOs will become even more important to both take and hold, as it will become harder for supplies to spawn and to prevent the enemy from obtaining their next keep rank.

Not only will BOs now become the new focus of the RvR, but due to supplies having to be physically run to WC/Keeps by players, both realms will set up roaming ambushes to attack (or protect) supply runners. The visual supply indicator and supply timer will make running supplies risky and require it to be done quickly. Dynamic movement will be critical for securing supplies.

This new supply line BO system will inevitably increase organisation, communication, and spread players across the map into roaming warbands. As a blob can only secure a single BO at a time, it would also discourage blob play. This new emphasis on organisation and roaming warbands would create a more guild-focused community, while also giving smaller groups a chance to contribute to the campaign through supply running and backline capture of BOs.

Sounds amazing right? No doubt many would be frothing at the mouth for such changes finally being implemented and excited for this new BO-based RvR system and all the awesome new gameplay it will bring.

Now let's see what happens when the new system goes live and the theory meets reality:

No one cares and everyone pug-blobs in the middle of the map between both warcamps to farm kills.

Now that’s just BOs. Think about how the same thing has happened with all the other changes that have been made to RvR, such as ram icons (seen any intercepts lately?), keep ranks and upgrades, AAO, x‑realming, leader icons, etc. All of them have had the best intentions and are amazing in theory, but then they meet the reality of how players actually interact with the game, and they all fail.

Maybe it’s not that the devs don’t care about RvR or don't have any ideas for it; it’s just that they have the experience to know that whatever they do, the players will not interact with it as intended, as was alluded to in Yaliskah's post. Would you want to put your free time and effort into that?

Same for the BO-stacking buff on captureing an objective, that was the single line of text that brought me back a year ago after having needed an RoR break. This change showed me will and motivation and more importantly understanding of the playerbehavior, and trying to address it directly head on. Trying to give more playerkill progression by doing your homework and eating your veggies and captureing some BOs. Brilliant attempt, I do it myself go around and refresh the buffs for myself and my guys. But the overall community havnt embraced it, countless warbands i join the leader moves with theres 7 seconds left of the buff (shoutout to merci lol)

That should give you a bit of a clue that the changes you believe will save RvR may not result in the outcome you envision. It hasn’t for any of the changes the devs have ever made for RvR, so why would the changes this nebulous “community” wants be any different? Let’s not forget it was the “community” that campaigned for timed cities. How has that change worked out?

We all get caught up in believing our thoughts are true, and that if only the world followed the vision we have in our heads, then everything would work out exactly as we imagine it. We can see the results so clearly in our own minds; it becomes inconceivable that they’re not the solution, especially when we convince other people we’re right and they agree with us. Hell, basically all of politics runs on this mode of thinking.

It’s important to take a step back and realise that our thoughts are just thoughts, and that the vision we have in our heads — no matter how real and true it may feel — may not match reality if it were ever implemented. If we don’t do this, we can end up torturing ourselves with our own thoughts and making ourselves frustrated, angry, and miserable, as we believe the solution is so obvious — if only someone would listen to us

The problem with the campaign is, quite simply, that there is no carrot.

And I think I've been saying this for years now.

In my opinion, the currency unification was what ultimately killed the campaign. Before that, capturing keeps led to cities, and BiS gear was obtained specifically by taking part in and winning those sieges. That was the real engine behind the campaign: you wanted to progress and get the best gear, so you had an actual reason to push zones, take keeps, and eventually reach the enemy city.

Since War Crests were introduced, everything has basically been simplified into killing, killing, and more killing.

A few of us still want to play the campaign as an actual campaign: move the frontline, siege, defend, capture keeps, and win zones. But we are a minority.

And you can see this perfectly when a zone has, for example, +40% AAO and yet the side with a clear numerical advantage still doesn't even bother pulling out a ram.

Sorry, Destro, but I'm mostly talking about you here. During my usual playtime, it is surprisingly difficult for you guys to find the courage to pull out a ram.

The game needs real incentives for winning the campaign.

And not only that. It also needs new incentives for reaching RR90, RR100, or even higher. Personally, I would even consider rescaling Renown back towards something closer to the original WAR system — although that would probably make Thorbolt jump straight from RR105 to RR140 — with a much more linear progression instead of the absurd system we have now, where you need roughly another 500,000 RR, then another 1,000,000 RR per level above RR80, and so on.

You only need to talk to the average RoR player to see how player motivation actually works.

People are constantly switching characters because:

"I have to finish my weekly quests."

As if it were a job.

Why?

Because they want the rewards. Because they need the carrot.

Why do people who don't even enjoy PvE still do PvE? Why do people who don't even enjoy SCs still do SCs?

Because of the carrot.

There is specific gear they need or want to complete. Maybe they will barely play that character afterwards, but at least they will have the full Lost Vale set.

Others run Bastion Stairs to save War Crests from Invader and have them ready when they reach RR78. They equip Sovereign, play the character until RR80 — RR81 if they're lucky — and then move on to the next alt.

And then they start all over again.

It is not necessarily because they find that content incredibly fun. They do it because there is a specific reward waiting for them at the end.

That is exactly what I think a revamped campaign needs.

A special, exclusive, desirable reward for winning the campaign.

Add a weekly quest to deliver 100 supplies, and you'll see plenty of supply haters moving boxes just to complete it. Carrot.

Not another way of earning War Crests. Not simply a few extra crests for capturing a zone. Something you cannot obtain just by farming kills for hours.

Give people an exclusive reward tied to actually winning the campaign, and I think you would suddenly see a huge part of the population start caring about winning zones, pulling out rams, defending fortresses, and pushing the campaign all the way to the end.

Because then winning the campaign would give them a carrot they currently don't have.

And we all know how this works.

As Waylon Smithers once said:

"But she's got a... new hat!"

I don't have much to add to this thread but I just want to say to you KPI that I often read your posts about the campaign and your passion really comes through

I may be a simple-brained choppa who likes picking big fights but when you talk about the campaign, my imagination takes control

Thanks for advocating for this, see you on the battlefield

[kpihuss]

I don't have much to add to this thread but I just want to say to you KPI that I often read your posts about the campaign and your passion really comes through

I may be a simple-brained choppa who likes picking big fights but when you talk about the campaign, my imagination takes control

Thanks for advocating for this, see you on the battlefield

Thanks a lot for your words.

To be honest, WAR was a game I really loved—the sense of a campaign, the camaraderie, the way the whole faction coordinated to fight and die together, and the pride in one's realm... it was magnificent. And the truth is, I really miss it.

Every night when I log in and see endless hours of camping at the Warcamp or senseless brawling, it breaks my heart. That’s why I write these posts—trying to help the team in the only way I can (even if they don't want my help ).

I hope to hit you really hard with my mace the next time I see you on the battlefield (but with love, of course).

[shoelessHN]

It's really not that complicated.

If the rewards for doing the other mechanics were high enough people would do that instead of mindless blob back and forth between warcamps.

[Akalukz]

Pretty simply summaraztion that people (players) would like to see.

Who is lead on RvR development, What is the roadmap for the next 12-18 months.

I think right now any change would be a good change. Hell just go into a zone and move all the bo's around, that in itself is "new". It could be as simply as a randomly shifting "active" BFO space instead of tied to a generic static spot, every 15 mins, make a realm have to control 3 BFO's to be able to support a ram. If less than 3 bfo for 5 mins - ram starts taking 2% damage every 30 seconds.

The key is here, to do SOMETHING, rather than nothing.

The thought that there are little to no C# devs seems strange, as i would say the majority of us are older, and i find it hard to believe the player base can't put forth a competent C# dev.

[Hecksa]

I think right now any change would be a good change. Hell just go into a zone and move all the bo's around, that in itself is "new". It could be as simply as a randomly shifting "active" BFO space instead of tied to a generic static spot, every 15 mins, make a realm have to control 3 BFO's to be able to support a ram. If less than 3 bfo for 5 mins - ram starts taking 2% damage every 30 seconds.

The key is here, to do SOMETHING, rather than nothing.

100% this. I'd love to see more experimentation - we're in the alpha phase!

For example, take the idea of shuffling around BOs. Why not pick some new spots for a bunch of BOs in a zone or two, and trial it for a week? Pop something in the patch notes explicitly saying it will run for a week, then drop a poll in the forums or a survey ingame asking if it helped or made things worse. If it's easy to move BOs, they could be moved around on a regular basis (eg, one zone per week, lined up with the RvR weekly quest?), giving new tactical challenges every time they change.

And if it sucks, and the majority agree it sucks...then just move them back to where they were before, and try some other idea.

That's just one example - I won't speculate as to the extent of the system that's run by C# and what's pure database work, but I'm sure there's at least a few tweaks that could be tried out without touching any C#.

The thought that there are little to no C# devs seems strange, as i would say the majority of us are older, and i find it hard to believe the player base can't put forth a competent C# dev.

I suspect the problem isn't finding C# devs - every second post in this thread has a qualifier at the end of "I should know, I'm a C# dev". I think it's more getting people willing + able to commit enough time, and who are also known to be competent + trustworthy.

I should know, I'm a C# dev.
(who's never applied because I'm not able to reliably commit any time to the project. I'd love to be involved once my life outside of RoR allows it, though).

[Rydiak]

"Everyone's a programmer, but no one wants to program." Or something like that.

[JohnnyWayne]

"Everyone's a programmer, but no one wants to program." Or something like that.

Well, if you do something for a living, do you also want to do that in your spare time? With people having expectations towards your work? I don't. Not really. I think.

[Akalukz]