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Tank Survivability: Are Defensive Builds Rewarded Enough?

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Jajcek12
Posts: 115

Re: Tank Survivability: Are Defensive Builds Rewarded Enough?

Post#21 » Sun Sep 06, 2026 7:08 pm

Culexus wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2026 6:50 pm
chook06 wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2026 9:36 pm Maybe that’s a better way to frame what I was trying to say in the first place. Not simply: “Are defensive tanks tanky enough?” but rather: “Does the game reward players enough for committing so heavily to a defensive playstyle, both in terms of effectiveness and how enjoyable that role feels to play?”

It's a real shame this is a solo thread, as that's an interesting topic for discussion and there have been some great comments.
Imo all who accuse others for " solo thread" are subconcious solo players- in warband, in sc ect
Every player is in some sence solo when he start , then he discover his role and part in game- not everyone does.

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Culexus
Posts: 351

Re: Tank Survivability: Are Defensive Builds Rewarded Enough?

Post#22 » Sun Sep 06, 2026 7:48 pm

Jajcek12 wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2026 7:08 pm Imo all who accuse others for " solo thread" are subconcious solo players- in warband, in sc ect
Every player is in some sence solo when he start , then he discover his role and part in game- not everyone does.

I'm not accusing; OP said they want to base this discussion on individual survivability without group support.
Spoiler:
chook06 wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2026 4:51 pm I think my point is being misunderstood a little.

I'm not talking about a tank supported by healers, Guard interactions, defensive morales, etc. And I'm not saying that a tank should be immortal when several players focus it.

I'm simply talking about the basic trade-off when you choose to play FULL defensive.

If I build my tank almost entirely around defence, sacrificing most of my offensive potential to do so, then I think that choice should have a very clear consequence: a single DPS should not realistically be able to kill that tank in a 1v1.

That doesn't mean the tank should necessarily be able to kill the DPS either. A stalemate seems perfectly reasonable to me. The tank chose survivability over damage.

The same logic applies to a full healer. In a pure 1v1 situation, I don't think a DPS should normally be able to kill a properly built and properly played healer either. As soon as a second player gets involved, with coordinated pressure, interrupts, CC, heal debuffs, etc., the situation obviously changes completely.

That's the distinction I'm making:

1 DPS vs full defensive tank → the tank should survive.
1 DPS vs full healer → the healer should survive.
2 or more players focusing them → completely different situation.

Otherwise, what is the actual reward for sacrificing almost all your damage in order to maximise your defence?

And I also want to make it clear that I'm not only looking at this from the perspective of a tank player. I mainly play DPS, with several characters above RR80 and fully geared, and the difference feels very noticeable to me.

For some time now, I have had the feeling that it has become much easier, as a well-geared DPS, to bring some tanks down very quickly. In the past, attacking a defensive tank really felt like hitting a wall and required much more effort. That feeling seems far less present today.

I'm not presenting this as an absolute truth, but as my experience from both sides. And that's exactly what makes me wonder whether the overall increase in offensive power has gradually reduced the value and reward of playing a purely defensive tank.

I also think this raises a question about how attractive the role is. You only have to look at the different group-finding channels: tanks and healers are very regularly being looked for.

I'm not saying survivability is necessarily the only reason for this shortage. But I think the question is worth asking: when someone decides to play a tank, they primarily do it to support and protect their team, but they also reasonably expect that investing heavily into defence means they won't be destroyed extremely quickly.

If that feeling of being genuinely durable gradually disappears while the offensive sacrifices remain the same, then the role inevitably becomes less rewarding.

Regarding my gear and stats: yes, I can share them. But my question is broader than whether one particular build could gain another few percent of parry or block. What I'm asking is what the intended design philosophy is for a player who invests almost entirely into defence.

And regarding the “unkillable tanks” we sometimes see in RvR: the fact that a tank can be extremely difficult to kill while receiving heals and playing within a group does not necessarily mean that the tank itself is too durable. That's exactly what group support is supposed to achieve.

So my question is mainly about the individual survivability you get in return for the offensive sacrifice required to achieve it, and how that balance has evolved over time.
As I said in my comment, I think it's a shame it's framed that way, as there's a far more interesting discussion to be had when looking at this in a group context.
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gisborne
Posts: 264

Re: Tank Survivability: Are Defensive Builds Rewarded Enough?

Post#23 » Sun Sep 06, 2026 9:05 pm

Alubert wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2026 3:00 pm Your group benefits from you sacrificing offensive abilities/stats in favor of being tanky.
The biggest benefit is that you absorb a large amount of damage with your Guard ability. This reduces the pressure on healers.
Not focusing on dealing damage is also a big plus because it allows you to focus on positioning (so enemy tanks don’t knock you back), using CC, and so on.

Of course, as a fan of playing defensive tanks, I’d love to see more options for them.

For example, a speed buff proc on the shield, similar to the Zealot’s Charm.

A one-handed weapon with a morale pump/proc, etc.

I’m hoping the new itemization will bring something fresh to the table.
I don't know, I think a lot of defense is often a waste. Very rarely as a healer am I wishing the tank were more tanky. It's the non-tanks that are usually the healing concern. I'd rather tanks give up some tankiness to have additional utility or, in some cases, damage.
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tazdingo
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Re: Tank Survivability: Are Defensive Builds Rewarded Enough?

Post#24 » Mon Sep 07, 2026 1:14 am

the issue is and always has been damage procs. going def helps you very little for the tradeoff

Alubert
Posts: 837

Re: Tank Survivability: Are Defensive Builds Rewarded Enough?

Post#25 » Mon Sep 07, 2026 5:27 am

Illuminati wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2026 3:51 pm We should all admit that there are too many undefendable attacks, tactic based proc damage, etc. that trivialize or bypass defenses. Every tank should have a grumble and mutter type ability, especially when you have DPS healers running around with equivalent mitigation in the form of self-healing, etc.

Heck, simply make pilfer unmitigatable, 20% proc chance without a cooldown, only available to tank classes, and you will counter all the undefendable mess that has been created.
No. We don’t need in the game HP regen and self healing tanks.
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SWEtree
Posts: 66

Re: Tank Survivability: Are Defensive Builds Rewarded Enough?

Post#26 » Mon Sep 07, 2026 7:33 am

Tanks sacrifices alot to become a important support class. They can take a beating and they can give others the means to kill the enemy and control the battlefield.
Tanks are in a good spot now and start messing around with it and we will se much less tanks in the lakes.
Devs put alot effort into balance but if they mess up tanks the entire ship could sink.
Leave the tanks alone! ;)
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Jajcek12
Posts: 115

Re: Tank Survivability: Are Defensive Builds Rewarded Enough?

Post#27 » Mon Sep 07, 2026 6:08 pm

Ballance team put effort to shape current meta and type of interactions, doesnt mean it couldnt be adjusted even more. Duno if anti-cc,guard bot with mitigation test simulator is interesting.

What i would like to see in rvr tank builds is
- challange that protect only tank from group/party/warband hes from. (Its abbility that have target cap equal to allies tank have around) Now after challange rework one tank can protect everything around with one challange- it can solve also zerg problem.
- verious types of challange, for verious type of dmg and status.(burst, dot, morales, procs)
-range challange - since tank in current meta is change into (punt/mitigation) bot and warband are consist from rdps mostly - traditional challange is artifact when it was mdps focused game.

nocturnalguest
Posts: 1037

Re: Tank Survivability: Are Defensive Builds Rewarded Enough?

Post#28 » Mon Sep 07, 2026 8:12 pm

Culexus wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2026 6:50 pm
chook06 wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2026 9:36 pm Maybe that’s a better way to frame what I was trying to say in the first place. Not simply: “Are defensive tanks tanky enough?” but rather: “Does the game reward players enough for committing so heavily to a defensive playstyle, both in terms of effectiveness and how enjoyable that role feels to play?”

It's a real shame this is a solo thread, as that's an interesting topic for discussion and there have been some great comments.
This, gentelmen, is indeed an incredibly amazing topic. But i believe its gonna be hard to debate around, it feels so subjective to be honest.

A bit of context and selfreflection - i believe the hardest part here is separete two things - defensive build and tanking gameplay in general. As DPS its quite simple, you press buttons things die en mass you happy. Healing is also pretty obvious, you clash, they die you survive. Tanking is however different story, almost all emotional "rewards" are not obvious, not clear. There is nothing better to hear from your mates that your punt was a gamechanger, on point and decided a fight when you either ideally disrupt enemy MA or separate crucial targets that lead into snowball effects. All those moments that you play around colision and bodyblocking fleeing target with quick sidesteps. This all feels amazing but there is no real visible dopamine pump.
This question is also tied into environment - what you play? orvr? org city siege?
Yes people know that tanks can carry fights. But its clear which DPS did carry, its not for tanks.

Thinking of all this i struggle to define "Defensive playstyle", i may define it as something that contains a) movement control (collision) b) CC c) bait? (due to ability to soak up more dmg and generally do more positional "mistakes") so i'd better put it like “Does the game reward players enough for playing defensive tank, both in terms of effectiveness and how enjoyable that role feels to play?”.

So, my post is pretty incoherent, however ill try to form some quick thesis:
- In terms of game system rewards def tank is just fine, from player "emotional" pov its lacking, both in terms of recognizability from others and also from encouragment pov as tank is actually the hardest role and you being 1 second late for a guard swap could be the end so mostly you gonna be scolded :D
- Defensive or not, it doesnt matter. Its in a whole, a generic tanking gameplay/teamplay worth looking into and discussing
- The higher organisation the more enjoyable it becomes. Playing tank in pugs is awful experience.


Also a small but very important derailing as i already post here and i completely missed out previous time this urban legend raises up again, other thread this thing appeared recently would be too strange to hijack so ill leave this one here
lumpi33 wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2026 10:26 am #2 the tanks high parry rates that is being used to defend guard damage. Tanks were never meant to have such high defend rates on guard damage. It was initially on "block" chance that was used to defend guard damage, not "parry". Block is usually much lower than parry, therefore it has created an imbalance. The intention for 2h tanks was good but the side effects are again bad. Change guard damage defense to a combination of block and parry where block contributes 50% and parry 50%. A 2hand tank should be a worse guard than a shield tank. If they can pump their parry to over 70% than 50% of it is more than enough.
Thats false info. It was always on block (in case you have shield equiped)+parry since AoR beta. You have a complete mess in your head in terms of fundamental game mechanics but i guess you confuse it with a change Yali did here. Guard code was fundamentally ninja changed once here when one team member decided that there is no logic in "parrying" a fireball. So they made guard to use different checks according to origin of ability hitting. Was a whole big mess... Thankfully its back into what it should be. But! Remember, it wasnt initially on block, it was always on block and parry. And its aint RoR change. Thats how it was on live as well.

chook06
Posts: 52

Re: Tank Survivability: Are Defensive Builds Rewarded Enough?

Post#29 » Tue Sep 08, 2026 6:01 am

I think one point needs to be clarified once again, because part of the discussion is still going in a direction that is not what I was talking about.

I am not talking about solo play, and I am absolutely not asking for the game to be balanced around 1v1.

I used the example of a DPS facing a full defensive tank only as a theoretical example to isolate the intrinsic characteristics of the two roles. It is a way of looking at what defensive investment actually produces, not a demand regarding solo gameplay.

For me, a tank is obviously meant to be played in a group. Its role is to protect its group, control space, control enemy players, use Guard, Challenge, CC, positioning, collision, etc. On that point, I think we almost all agree.

And contrary to what some replies seem to assume, my conclusion is not: “tanks need to be buffed.”

I actually start from the assumption that tanks are currently fairly well balanced overall.

What I find much more interesting after reading all the replies is the interaction between tank defenses and the offensive tools available today.

Several people have raised this point as well: undefendable attacks, proc damage, damage that bypasses certain defensive mechanics, extremely high offensive pressure, very short TTK in some situations, etc.

And that is probably much closer to the question I was trying to ask.

If a tank invests heavily in block, parry, disrupt, armour and other defensive stats, but an increasing portion of incoming damage goes through regardless of those investments, then perhaps the issue is not that the tank lacks defense.

Perhaps it is simply that the effective value of defensive stats is reduced against certain forms of damage.

That is an important distinction.

Directly increasing tank defenses could create tanks that are far too resistant when they are properly supported by their group. I completely understand that argument, and I do not want that.

However, it is perfectly reasonable to ask whether all the methods that currently allow defenses to be bypassed or neutralised have gradually changed the balance between offensive and defensive investment.

That is also why the comments about Guard, positioning, control or group utility do not really contradict what I am saying. Yes, that is exactly what a tank is supposed to do. And yes, its defensive investment can bring enormous value to its group.

The question is rather: do offensive and defensive systems still interact in a sufficiently coherent way?

I also found the comments from Jajcek12 and nocturnalguest very interesting on another point: rewarding tank gameplay is not necessarily a matter of raw survivability.

A good punt, a Guard swap at the right moment, a Challenge, body blocking or good positioning can completely decide a fight, while their impact is much less immediately visible than the damage dealt by a DPS.

That is probably also part of the problem when we talk about whether defensive tank gameplay is “rewarding.”

So today, I would reframe the discussion like this:

Are tanks too weak? Probably not.
Do tanks need to be buffed overall? I do not think so.

But is the amount of undefendable damage, proc damage and mechanics that allow defenses to be bypassed currently too high?

And above all:

when a player invests heavily in a defensive stat, should that stat have a sufficiently coherent response to the opponent’s offensive investments, rather than simply being ignored by part of the incoming damage?

That is the interaction I find interesting to discuss.

Because ultimately, the goal is certainly not to make tanks immortal.

The goal would rather be to ensure that defensive and offensive choices remain genuinely meaningful, and that there is a clear logic of trade-offs and counterplay between the two.

And I think that is much more interesting to discuss than reducing the topic to “just another solo player who wants to make his tank impossible to kill.” 🙂

Farrul
Posts: 973

Re: Tank Survivability: Are Defensive Builds Rewarded Enough?

Post#30 » Tue Sep 08, 2026 7:38 am

chook06 wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2026 6:01 amSo today, I would reframe the discussion like this:

Are tanks too weak? Probably not.
Do tanks need to be buffed overall? I do not think so.

But is the amount of undefendable damage, proc damage and mechanics that allow defenses to be bypassed currently too high?

And above all:

when a player invests heavily in a defensive stat, should that stat have a sufficiently coherent response to the opponent’s offensive investments, rather than simply being ignored by part of the incoming damage?

That is the interaction I find interesting to discuss.

Because ultimately, the goal is certainly not to make tanks immortal.

The goal would rather be to ensure that defensive and offensive choices remain genuinely meaningful, and that there is a clear logic of trade-offs and counterplay between the two.

And I think that is much more interesting to discuss than reducing the topic to “just another solo player who wants to make his tank impossible to kill.” 🙂
Tanks as generally fine, if built correctly they are able to withstand heavy punishment in RvR.

The thing about your question(s) is that everything in RoR is balanced around the Healer archetype( in a group dynamic). If tanks are made ''tankier'' indirectly by addressing DPS related stuff which has been mentioned, then the risk is making Healers even more OP than they already are, i personally prefer everything dying faster not slower since it's super boring tbh ( MMO games in general always have healers being too OP for my taste).

Likewise i do not see the point of making tanks ''tankier'' directly either as if built correctly, they can already take a lot of abuse.

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