Grace WP/DoK Needs Help – Simple Start/Fix, Not a Rework

[Mortgrimm]

So u think shield priest is great cause he only shines in 1v1 and duo?
This part is probably true. Try it in a full party as u need guard, heal is low, dmg not really there. It´s like "oooh, i have one good ability,this class is OP."
It was good after the initial healer patch, just needed a bit fine tuning. Then they changed everything. Most of the shield priests i know play with more ppl then just solo or duo. And i can assure u, we all tried different gear, different builds etc to make it work again. without any luck. Maybe shield is not unplayable. but why should i play a build that doesn´t work for my play style and where both other builds, book and 2h, are wayyy better. i don´t need to suffer in game,i wanna have fun playing a class i like. Unfortunately this times are over for most of our melee healer enjoyer.
Devs won´t change it, so this build is dead.

[abtasiens]

So u think shield priest is great cause he only shines in 1v1 and duo?

Its great for me, not generally speaking. And as written, i got it that people are upset. But since this game seems to favor blobbing over everything - and encouraged it even further with changes i witnessed in the last year mostly imo - i give anything that does quite the opposite a warm welcome.

Try it in a full party as u need guard, heal is low, dmg not really there. It´s like "oooh, i have one good ability,this class is OP."

Agreed. But i dont want to try it there. Thats where i play book then. And other might play 2h here, which i dont like nor prefer. Shield Melee isnt the only build in that game that only fits a certain role in this game. There are many ohter classes and builds that serve and are viable only in one or two playstyles and situations. You wont change that either, neither do you want to i guess. So it comes down to the same statement i did in the first place: people are frustated with shield heal because its purpose was changed completly (against their will).

i don´t need to suffer in game,i wanna have fun playing a class i like.

and i completly agree with you on that point as well. Grace WP doenst be the class for you (anymore). Which, by itself, is sad for you and many others. I get that there are more losers then winners, but getting around to my point, that doenst mean the Shieldspec has no place left to be played and is bad as it is. Its just super nieche. And i personally cheer for everything a bit off meta nowadays.

[krumhur]

I’ll jump to the recent healer patch. Almost every Grace/DoK main I’ve talked to feels disappointed with how the spec now plays especially in terms of healing and defense. I’ve been hearing the same concerns and suggestions across the board.

That beeing said is what i see as "the problem with shield DoK/WP" right now: The players, not the class. And i get that.

Devs have reworked something player liked, to something people dont like anymore. The class, that before could be worked to do task "a, b & c" is now only usable for task "d". Seems like a dck move, which for sure can be argued about on its own but isnt an objective take on the class after the changes.

Im a new player. i just recently wanted to play my book priest as grace. So i dont know how grace was played "back in the good old days". I took the cards that were given and did the best out of it. Well... it turned out great for me and im enjoying it as it is. Can i heal Wbs, nope. Can i heal smallscale, nope. Do i perfom good in Scs, not even that. But im a hell of a take in 1v1. Im also strong in duos/trios. Which is, i know, not the common audience of the game. But im dead happy since its my favorit part of it.

As written above: I get the frustration that, after the changes, you werent able to play as you were used to do. And the new grace turned out to be pretty nieche. But its far from bad. Quite the opposite - i feel strong in the meta i try to play it in and id be worried if they buffed it.

The big challenge seem to remain to please them all. Which wont happen soon. Which isnt even possible i guess. To make shield WP/DoK balanced and reliable in all content RoR has to offer id would need a complete rework. And if even then, since the game is what it is, you might never accomplish to make a melee healer work without any losses

shout out to Devs that gave me a class i completly enjoy and shout out of compassion to all the players who lost the class they used to like!

To me that seems like an over simplification: it's too easy to say that players are the problem when the spec simply doesn't perform properly in the main game format.
As you said, the spec is "pretty niche", it performs well only in very limited aspects of the game (mostly PvE, where you can spec for full damage, and very small scale fights, where you can forego some defenses), far from what is the current meta-game of the server.

Also, as much as I'd like the same topic to be discussed in just one thread (while we have two now? maybe more), it's important to note that the point of these threads is not to "please" all the gamers, but to make the spec playable, and more importantly meaningful/efficient (in regards to other healers) in the current meta.
The spec has to become meaningful again for the meta, otherwise it will mean that only a minuscule fraction of the player base will enjoy it and that all the work which has been put into it will be wasted (given that devs have limited resources).

On another note, I agree with you that a rework on the spec won't happen soon: the recent itemisation pass will need many adjustments, and it's not even complete, then it's time for the ranged classes balance patch.
Time will pass before the spec will be reworked, that's fine and that's also why, to me, it feels wrong to make new threads for the same topics, it looks just like a way to put pressure on the devs.

Finally, one aspect which is currently discussed is the damage/heal ratio and the need for the spec to go full defensive to even survive on the front-line, at the cost of damage output.
What is not usually considered, instead, is the fact that the spec could be reworked into a slightly different kind of healer, a bit more versed on the support side than on straight healing+melee dmg: there are many utility skills which are sought after but whose availability is gated behind certain classes/equipments (i.e. cooldown reductions, pulsing shields, CC immunities, snare clears, movement speed buffs, incoming crit chance debuffs, etc). If the spec is not meant to damage (and it can't, given then amount of defenses you need to stay on the front-line), then maybe it could be made into a front-line supporter (heal + support/utility instead of heal + silly damage), with area based buffs.
It's just an idea, a way to find a solution to the damage/defense stats balance + healing output issues the spec has, but without working only on those variables.

[kpihuss]

Spoiler:

The healing is split in a Base Heal and a lifesteal part, where only the lifesteal part is based on the damage you deal.
The lifesteal part of the damage is a separate heal that does not count as direct healing, cannot crit (as the damage can already crit), and remains unaffected by heal (de)buffs.
Their damage and healing (of the Base Heal) use Damage bonus.
The Base heal from these abilities can critically hit and uses Melee/Magic Crit for its crit chance and Critical Damage modifier to the critical heals.
The Base Heal does not scale with weapon damage.
The Base heal from these abilities has the same 10% additional crit chance as other healing abilities.
The healing from the Base Heal counts as direct heals.
The healing from the Base Heal is affected by incoming heal (de)buffs.
The healing from the Base Heal is affected by outgoing heal (de)buffs.
Even if the attack gets defended, it will still heal for the Base Heal.

The following abilities use this new design:
Divine Strike / Consume Essence
Sigmar’s Radiance / Transfer Essence
Sigmar’s Will (New) / Khaine’s Force (New)
Benediction (New) / Khaine’s Encouragement (New)
Balance Essence (If using Expanded Control) / I’ll Take That (If using Waaagh! Frenzy)
Transfer Force (If using Expanded Control / Bleed Fer’ Me (If using Waaagh! Frenzy)
Energy of Vaul / Fury of Da Green
We believe that with the newly designed abilities, the playstyle of damage based healing will become much more interesting. By having the abilities be negatively affected by Divine Fury, we reduce the damage output of these specs, but giving them a lot of utility in return by making the healing count as direct healing. Additionally, weaving in Willpower based healing has become a lot more viable, promoted further with the new Benediction and Khaine’s Encouragement abilities.

Lifetapes were overpowered before, now they still bypass a bit healdebuff
(Exception on Divine Assault wich still bypass completely)
What's wrong with shield spec is the blurry utility of willpower and str, since gear is str based
Maybe next gear rework will change things

For now, only few buff needed:
-Divine Aid/Pious Restauration : May scale on strength too
-World of Wisdom : Reduce the ressources cost
-Sigmar's Will : Reduce the ressources cost

I like the idea of more % block buff since shield means frontline
Nice idea too for Sigmar's Radiance 30->40 / Imo Sigmar's will to 60 will be enough
But don't remove Divine Strike :p it's really useful in few situations like 1v1 / 2v2

For dok some tactics may be reworked :
Gift of Khaine ain't great since the changes on Khaine's Force
Transferred Focus is overpowered for 1v1 in dps and not much useful for shield, since Khaine force is the key
Wp can provide healdebuff while it's not possible for dok (same for book/chalice) ;
HD could be for Sanguinary Extension instead of endtree tactic

RoR.builders - Warrior Priest
RoR.builders - Disciple of Khaine

That new hybrid spec is actually real fun to play
You may change some tactics depending pvp/pve (fueled one really useful)

Lifetaps were not overpowered before; they just were not countered in the same way as normal heals.

Stopping a shield healer from lifetapping was as simple as knocking them down, slowing them, punting them, kiting a bit, or using absorb shields. Even a basic 1500 absorb potion could deny you three full GCDs. You traded the safety of the backline for stronger heals, but the opponent had many ways to prevent them. Now, not only can they still do all of that to stop your healing, but on top of that your heals can be debuffed, and your baseline healing value is much lower.

By the way, shield Divine Assault does so little damage that the healing it provides is worse than Divine Strike, and it also costs RF, while the channel can be interrupted by positioning. It is not a strong ability.

As for Divine Aid / Pious Restoration scaling with Strength, that is a bad idea, just like Healing Hand scaling with Strength is a bad idea. Shield healers are melee healers and lifetappers. They are not casters. I do not think any shield WP/DoK player enjoys being a boring caster, which is exactly why they play on the frontline. We want tools that let us heal in melee; we do not want band-aid fixes that turn us into caster healers standing on the frontline.

[kpihuss]

I’ll jump to the recent healer patch. Almost every Grace/DoK main I’ve talked to feels disappointed with how the spec now plays especially in terms of healing and defense. I’ve been hearing the same concerns and suggestions across the board.

That beeing said is what i see as "the problem with shield DoK/WP" right now: The players, not the class. And i get that.

Devs have reworked something player liked, to something people dont like anymore. The class, that before could be worked to do task "a, b & c" is now only usable for task "d". Seems like a dck move, which for sure can be argued about on its own but isnt an objective take on the class after the changes.

Im a new player. i just recently wanted to play my book priest as grace. So i dont know how grace was played "back in the good old days". I took the cards that were given and did the best out of it. Well... it turned out great for me and im enjoying it as it is. Can i heal Wbs, nope. Can i heal smallscale, nope. Do i perfom good in Scs, not even that. But im a hell of a take in 1v1. Im also strong in duos/trios. Which is, i know, not the common audience of the game. But im dead happy since its my favorit part of it.

As written above: I get the frustration that, after the changes, you werent able to play as you were used to do. And the new grace turned out to be pretty nieche. But its far from bad. Quite the opposite - i feel strong in the meta i try to play it in and id be worried if they buffed it.

The big challenge seem to remain to please them all. Which wont happen soon. Which isnt even possible i guess. To make shield WP/DoK balanced and reliable in all content RoR has to offer id would need a complete rework. And if even then, since the game is what it is, you might never accomplish to make a melee healer work without any losses

shout out to Devs that gave me a class i completly enjoy and shout out of compassion to all the players who lost the class they used to like!

The problem is that shield WP is not even good in 1v1.

In the rare situation where you could actually find a 1v1, without getting jumped by three or four WEs around every corner, the situation is this: you have no damage, no burst, and not enough healing. Any 2H WP spec, including an AoE build, will have more damage, more healing, and more burst.

I have played a lot of 1v1 both before and now, and the only way to win them is if the opposing player is willing to fight to the death and has no form of self-healing at all. Then you simply win through attrition, because you heal and the opponent does not.

It is not that shield WP used to be able to do A, B, and C, and now has to do D instead. It is that now it cannot do A, B, C, or D.

I really love shield WP. It truly is my favorite class in the game. I played it for many, many hours across all types of content before the patch, and I have tested dozens, almost hundreds, of combinations of high-end gear, tactics, and renown setups. The conclusion is always the same: it does not hit hard, it does not heal enough, and it does not survive.

And it is not about wanting the old shield WP back. It is about wanting it to be playable, because I am genuinely looking forward to being able to play it again.