BUFF the BG already

[lumpi33]

69% for the buff?

so there are 69% destro players voting here vs 31% order player

come on... such vote is pointless...

[Florian90210]

69% for the buff?

so there are 69% destro players voting here vs 31% order player

come on... such vote is pointless...

Luckly we can see who voted, and "no" voted either trolls or order-obsessed ones.
Same trolls who supported crappy WS nerf patch.

[Alubert]

It's sad that someone doesn't realize that the WS patch was the best change to the server.
Nothing more logical and natural has been introduced in so many years.
It seems clear and simple that offensive statistics (WS) give an offensive buff and defensive statistics (Initiative) give defensive capabilities.
How can anyone defend the illogical old solution?
As a 2h BG, I have no problem with parry.
Without final equipment:
pve 2h spec 97% parry buffed
Pvp 2h spec 90% parry buffed.
What more could you want?
In my opinion, 2h BG is perfect.

[Farrul]

It's sad that someone doesn't realize that the WS patch was the best change to the server.
Nothing more logical and natural has been introduced in so many years.
It seems clear and simple that offensive statistics (WS) give an offensive buff and defensive statistics (Initiative) give defensive capabilities.
How can anyone defend the illogical old solution?
As a 2h BG, I have no problem with parry.
Without final equipment:
pve 2h spec 97% parry buffed
Pvp 2h spec 90% parry buffed.
What more could you want?
In my opinion, 2h BG is perfect.

Physical dps has always been at a disadvantage to Magic in terms of itemization( no need for a secondary stat to scale dmg and stats into toughness/ini with no loss of dps) hence at the time, it was a huge buff for Chosen/SM and a nerf to every other tank.

In retrospect it was not THAT bad, but imho a much better solution would have been to lower the amount of parry from WS but keep it tied to this stat.

[yoluigi]

Just got playing my lv 56 BO. Man my BO is not even in bis compare to my BG and it hits 2 times harder can steal all the stats without using abilities
Can Instant punt and also aoe punt.
Channel do insane dmg
Give weapon skill buff and buff also the defensive target
Get haste without using a tactic
get 20% crit when i need it also a good parry tactic that only require to be in certain stance.

THE ONLY THING THE BG got over bo is crimson death and an anti heal that is in the right tree soo cant commit to the parry tactic/tougness and the aoe slow.

People are brain dead to think bg dont deserve a buff. I only said a simple buff that could be applied anytime (easy to patch). But when you think about it the toughness debuff should be double and many other abilities should get buffed. There soo many requirement when other classes got access it from the start and do double the dmg.
Without the overtime heal this class is such in an disadvantage. Could easily put instead of the m4 in the path of malice just put the overtime heal.

Sever1n already gave a good topic on how to fix the class and great ideas

[Alubert]

It's sad that someone doesn't realize that the WS patch was the best change to the server.
Nothing more logical and natural has been introduced in so many years.
It seems clear and simple that offensive statistics (WS) give an offensive buff and defensive statistics (Initiative) give defensive capabilities.
How can anyone defend the illogical old solution?
As a 2h BG, I have no problem with parry.
Without final equipment:
pve 2h spec 97% parry buffed
Pvp 2h spec 90% parry buffed.
What more could you want?
In my opinion, 2h BG is perfect.

Physical dps has always been at a disadvantage to Magic in terms of itemization( no need for a secondary stat to scale dmg and stats into toughness/ini with no loss of dps) hence at the time, it was a huge buff for Chosen/SM and a nerf to every other tank.

In retrospect it was not THAT bad, but imho a much better solution would have been to lower the amount of parry from WS but keep it tied to this stat.

Why?
You invest in WS if you want to hit harder.
You invest in Ini if you want to be tougher.
Why should it be any different?
Like in the past, mdps investing in WS and playing with Riposte.
We've already put that nonsense behind us.

[Florian90210]

People are brain dead to think bg dont deserve a buff. I only said a simple buff that could be applied anytime (easy to patch). But when you think about it the toughness debuff should be double and many other abilities should get buffed. There soo many requirement when other classes got access it from the start and do double the dmg.

Somehow people ignore that classes like kotbs and chosen spend 0 AP, 0 GCD, buff AND debuff at same time, AoE. While other tanks have weak ST separate buff-debuff. It's clear that rest of the tanks should be bringed to level of kotbs and chosen both in buff-debuff and DPS capabilties.

[live4treasure]

I'm an order player, and I voted yes for the buff. BG damage is pathetic even when someone goes out of their way to build for it, and I don't remember the last time I've seen them in an SC premade. The proposal is fair, and the analysis post somewhere in the first few pages does a good job of explaining in detail why.

Either add some additional effect to the channel, or increase its damage, in my opinion.

[nocturnalguest]

Ok, folks, finally got some spare time, so here you are.

Listen if BG players want to go in depth and analyse i dont mind it, but considering the OP its really derailed. From my point of view its simple, this thing does no damage unlike the other two destro tank channels, so personally i do not consider it a buff but a restoration to a previous condition.

Im all ears. Also cant see much of derailing, OP was talking about channel, i talk about channel too.
1) Here is some nice summary of what we have to keep in mind for tracking current "design logic" viewtopic.php?p=568642#p568642
This is patch thats in question, it contains old data we dont reliably have anymore viewtopic.php?t=52372
So what we can see here of important things - stats modifer has been 150, base damage was 93. Lets move on
2) We have 6 tank channels, lets look into them. This i dislike so much that i literally feel disgust doing all this, no worse can be done in discussion then to compare abilities in a vacuum, without consideration of party/warband composition and evaluation of party/warband overall efficiency, which is the only true indicator of whats wrong and whats not but ill try to explain why they are somewhat balanced currently:

BG channel, 5p mastery, 7 hits, base 161 stat 80 wdps 65 (https://war-abilityviewer.dalen.io/ability/9343) - inb4 it had whooping 150 stat modifier way above all other channels (so at 700-900 str it did hit like a very heavy truck taking into account amount of hits it does, its very debatable if this exact channel would be even needed to be canceled for spiking dmg), this alone justified its nerf back in that patch because it contradicted ability design, then Torque moved it down in mastery tree he did further tweak its modifiers, reasons are obvious, Dalen/Gravord fixed this one. This channel since AoR has been HATE PUMP (https://builder.null/career/black-guard, why this link relevant - uo shard was trying to recreate AoR, obviously failed even tho folks like yoluigi have been actively advertising this nightmare) by DESIGN. 7 hits it does, +35 hate within 3 seconds just from hits and +10 for each crit and thats with other source of hate on top, amount of hits done is pretty crucial assuming 0,25 ICD (no matter recent changes or old, it was always good in this regards) which fits perfectly for procing procs (e.g. CoC). So tl;dr, it being a pump, 7 hits it does and its mastery tree allocation makes it OK. If someone wants to run damage tests dont discard common procs applied to properly compare things (i personally have no interest in this and im absolutely sure that everyone who posted here will do no test, but my take is it will not lack so much vs other channels, gonna be on par).
DISCLAMER: Mastery tree rework done during Torque era was pretty biased, but BG had no decent spot (same story as AoR), now BG has a role in current meta both as 2h&snb so BG buffs are not easy topic like you guys put it here. As for its role, i kinda did brief explanation on a matter here (viewtopic.php?p=586971#p586971) and in this thread too but tl;dr a) great blissful candidate b) best pick city siege s3 somewhat due to M4 along with its overall amazing turtleness c) has a spot in small scale just because crimson, aoe snare on demand and very decent sustain dmg d) punt alone justifies class usage in 6v6, its biggest disconnect from guard in-game

bo channel, 9p mastery, 5 hits, base 264 stat 120 wdps 90 (https://war-abilityviewer.dalen.io/ability/1689) - typical hard hitter, balanced by its interval (750ms), great mastery allocation so you make a choice between offensive/utility and also conditional being tied into a stance so at least 2 GCDs before it goes, so not "spamable". Its physical nature balanced with highest base. See no issues with this one, nice design.

kotbs channel, 9p mastery, 7 hits, base 184 stat 96 wdps 74 (https://war-abilityviewer.dalen.io/ability/8031) - this one is pretty irrelevant for any comparison as its mastery tree allocation makes it completely unreachable in serious gameplay with one exception of topnotch 6v6 comps where kotbs can drop KD but unless you run 2h SL (but if you do you need no kotbs, IB+SM is better synergy) you are better off striping things with DC tactic. But at least im happy for all the solo/pug folks who now fluff scoreboards and actively throwing matches in regular SCs running suboptimal specs. New synergy with SB is also pretty much irrelevant outside of solo.

chosen channel, 9p mastery, 6 hits, base 184 stat 96 wdps 74 (https://war-abilityviewer.dalen.io/ability/8343) - shares same modifiers with kotbs, with a cost of tactic slot becomes none-physical, easily reachable. Chosen is the very best fluffer, all those millions of damage done in city confirms this and for smallscale it brings very great sustain damage due to its magic nature. The only reason this one is fine is due to chosen just like kotbs actually being unable to spike its damage for it to become really deadly. Thankfully recent change in wrong direction (last hit) was very minor (while still absolutely unnecessary and not justified by anything sane). Admit its pretty OP for solo, but who cares.

sm channel, 9p mastery, 6 hits, base 236 stat 120 wdps 90 (https://war-abilityviewer.dalen.io/ability/9026) - hard hitter, same story as BO, 750ms, mastery allocation, tied into condition. Im not so sure if 236 base properly balances its damage type, but killboard data pretty much tells it does.

IB channel, 13p mastery, 5 hits, base 213 stat 120 wdps 90 (https://war-abilityviewer.dalen.io/ability/1385) - unique, incredibly spec dependant (which is actually a great thing as IB has best diversity for specs, ideal example of how it should be working in general), its the deadliest of them all, 10% armor penetration at 100 along with big crits, considering low amount of hits, its what makes IB bursts so deadly (but incredibly hard to properly execute, which is again very cool design imo) because it spikes dmg curves so much (its incredibly important because in the very end its all down to spikes in DPS curve vs HPS curve). Mastery tree perfectly balances this ability because you will lack lots of possible utility and options.

So, tl;dr - if EB stays a hate pump then its damage buff is not justified anyhow. I dont argue overall about some love and QoL for BG, but there is absolutely nothing to back up channel buff. It will be down to all this detrimental road of unneccesary changes and questionable design we are somewhat on.

Spoiler:

About warlord set, untrue. SM and Cho 2h wasnt relying on warlord set, it didnt hit them as hard it hit on phys tanks, especially kotbs whom dont have even own armshred.

Nobody wants to play in your verbal games ( what u keep anoingly doing by trying to put mental markers on others words for public), nor u show even basic understanding of issues of bg and keep spaming your solution of moving channel in trees that will achieve nothing. 1skill should not define all class dmg output, hes all kit must be working properly. Issues with class was listed and showed to you from experienced BGs, but its your own thing that u want to measure things with numbers that can and should be measured by experience. And not providing proofs with metod you demand from others. Before u start to drawn us in some, first ask rigth questions about BG.

Like DMG output of ALL his kit
Value of ALL his utility
How smootly ALL his mechanic and trees working.

Im tired of this nonsense. All feedback what was needed to give to devs about BG was given and i hope they can find sense in there even when some in here obviously failing. If someone have better solutions for class, you are welcome in balance proposals with your own "wishlists".

Without derailing - BG should be buffed? Yes, 100%. Trough buffing channel? Not necessarily, would be a lot healthier to look at all his kit and stats and fix problems, but for some magical reason some people cant see those obvios gaps.

About warlord set, untrue. SM and Cho 2h wasnt relying on warlord set, it didnt hit them as hard it hit on phys tanks

Its not very common knowledge, but warlord is incredibly strong on any tank even tho you are correct it wasnt commonly used on SM (even tho it has best usage of +2 points). On chosen it still makes/made sense due to morale drain. Detaunt alone made this set very OP but after two nerfs (1st for its duration, 2nd one nails it with -50% of your own dmg) its no longer so. But I admit i exaggerate a little bit, it wasnt so effecient for any tank as it was for physical ones.

Nobody wants to play in your verbal games ( what u keep anoingly doing by trying to put mental markers on others words for public), nor u show even basic understanding of issues of bg and keep spaming your solution of moving channel in trees that will achieve nothing

Dont talk for everyone, thats first. Second, read up whats actually written.

1skill should not define all class dmg output, hes all kit must be working properly. Issues with class was listed and showed to you from experienced BGs, but its your own thing that u want to measure things with numbers that can and should be measured by experience.

Here is the most brutal part, sadly. At first, in whole this thread i can see only 1 person that can be considered as experienced BG (its here viewtopic.php?t=60144&start=80#p590540) who can talk from his experience alone. I see no e.g. kryun, noronn or any of topnotch RU crew posting here (while main "contributing" people are solo heroes). Those people im absolutely sure can talk from just their experience alone. But definitely not you (nor me actually, cause im at the same levels of expertise for BG as you more or less, regular orvr, semiorganised cities, regular scs, didnt find you in soloq tho, just like you i havent done a single serious 6v6 match as BG) or e.g. yoluigi.

Also I dont oppose any person here but rather the approach used, i read very carefully and you provide nothing that actually proves that "his kit is not working properly". There is no list of issues with a class, and pinpointing those "issues" i see as pretty hard task on its own. Also i didnt anywhere "demand" numbers, i only mentioned data and environments. Can you explain yourself as BG if there are any "issues" for you to get a slot in semiorganised city siege (sadly proper ones dont exist anymore, meh so not even mentioning)? Any issues running old but gold comps in regular SCs? I believe you cant or else you wouldn't use snarky comments ignoring any questions or claims and would just backup your stuff with something.

So brevity something soul something and wit, yeah, but i kinda doubt there is actually something worthy to say on a matter.

And not providing proofs with metod you demand from others. Before u start to drawn us in some, first ask rigth questions about BG.

Like DMG output of ALL his kit
Value of ALL his utility
How smootly ALL his mechanic and trees working.

I dont ask for BG buffs so i dont have to provide any proofs. But still here you are, those are pretty easy to find:
- page 1 group ranked. https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... d593f9ac61 LotLR, lead by Rayzr, long established incredibly skilled team, a bless they are running nowdays. Comp is old but gold, classic. Dyster was full warlord in that match afaik, so he had -50% of his own dmg. You can pick any of those participants and see how their evening went. Dmg difference between him and meta spec Chosen is just 10k. If you further scroll 6v6 matches you will see BGs there are pretty common, they are used in comps that havent changed since years. Reasons i explained answering Farrul (those are a) b) c) d) meant).
- page 1 city siege, not very relevant cause there are no serious ones but still good example as its random fluffing. https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... 3020926487 nice fluff, just 30k behind best fluffer - chosen.

You ask very wrong questions (and its the main issue you dont understand what i say along with you simply not reading), but here are your answers:
a) dmg output of all his kit is very decent assuming utility BG provides on top of it while sacrificing nothing and doing no spec choices. it brings okaish sustain assist/pressure, but has no spikes just like chosen/kotbs.
b) its very decent, bg mirror is kotbs, they both provide more or less same valuable things with same ease. as QoL gameplay wise kotbs is easier to play, but BG provides more things as core (e.g. toughness debuff which kotbs simply cant afford in proper spec without AM in party or st crit debuff or core avoidance aoe debuff)
c) very smoothly

Proper questions are:
Does BG has troubles drastically dragging his party/warband down and having no use in terms of absolute efficiency?
Does BG unfairly gets some not yet unified skills, modifiers, scalers for its abilities?
Is BG shoehorned by design into 1 spec?
How many completely worthless abilities/tactics BG has?

Im tired of this nonsense. All feedback what was needed to give to devs about BG was given and i hope they can find sense in there even when some in here obviously failing.

You do understand how balance team functions nowdays, right? Cause I believe you dont, they implement their vision with consideration of all group content/environments, they dont look into abilities in vacuum, they look at gameplay. And you dont mention neither environments (so e.g. BG is bad pick for 6v6 because XYZ in XYZ does XYZ and XYZ is more efficient, you said absolutely nothing of a kind), so im absolutely sure they will see nothing interesting here. Only our meaningless banters which are also low quality and too civil so no fun.

Spoiler:

Just got playing my lv 56 BO. Man my BO is not even in bis compare to my BG and it hits 2 times harder can steal all the stats without using abilities
Can Instant punt and also aoe punt.
Channel do insane dmg
Give weapon skill buff and buff also the defensive target
Get haste without using a tactic
get 20% crit when i need it also a good parry tactic that only require to be in certain stance.

THE ONLY THING THE BG got over bo is crimson death and an anti heal that is in the right tree soo cant commit to the parry tactic/tougness and the aoe slow.

People are brain dead to think bg dont deserve a buff. I only said a simple buff that could be applied anytime (easy to patch). But when you think about it the toughness debuff should be double and many other abilities should get buffed. There soo many requirement when other classes got access it from the start and do double the dmg.
Without the overtime heal this class is such in an disadvantage. Could easily put instead of the m4 in the path of malice just put the overtime heal.

Sever1n already gave a good topic on how to fix the class and great ideas

You know whats actually braindead? Starting topics like this. Absolutely worthless waste of time for everyone here beside trolls like me.

Sever1n already gave a good topic on how to fix the class and great ideas

Do you actually understand that he pretty much doesnt support your request for channel buff?

P.S. i would also love to see BG buffed guys, like i said i have one too, dont misunderstand me on this, but i believe it may only occur unpredictably triggered by some random event. But its total bias my side and whats written in this thread is very low quality "feedback" so we are just wasting spare time here tbf

[Illuminati]

anyone know if the crit multiplier is the same across all tanks for channels? too tired to test it.