A reflection on stealth classes

[Sinisterror]

There would be no 184hp Regen Chest or 80hp Regen pocket if they didn't make changes based on solo roaming. We/Wh used to have place in RvR when they got Razor/Slice hits 9 people tactic. Actually there was spot in RvR for basically every class when they brought something strong and Unique to the table. When Wl was the Reverse Sorcerer Single target DMG king with Insane Mobility like jumping to keep walls and being in guard range at the same time and killing people off one by one, oh and pet was on target all the time without 50% speed tactic not dying to random ape splash dmg. And if it did you could use 50% Crit tactic/Revenge/Loner Tactics at the same time. So you would have 75% dmg increase for 10s when pet is dead. This was amazing and the best way to deal with pet issues. People are going to say " That is too OP " Don't know what they are talking about. My point is every class has had Identity and place in the game but RoR has slowly removed all layer's of skill/uniqueness from class balance and RVR is just empty of any meaning or substance:E Current version of WL doing 2k crits to everyone every 13s how is this version of WL not too OP if Single target DMG was too OP and specs are restricted? Come on

[Gorjax]

I think all you vets need to look at this from a new players point of view. Especially those just entering Tier 2. Or even the point of view of somebody who has dumped 100's hours into the game.

I believe a lot of this conversation is from people who know the game inside and out, and have gear that is at, or approaching Sovereign. You dont see how this effects all the people coming from Reddit, or Youtube, or Tiktok etc etc who sit down and give the game a proper try.

If you step off the beaten path in RvR, youre instantly dead, no counter play, your dead in the stun, or just outside the stun. And that is how it remains until you put in the ungodly amount of play time to get into the later game gear sets. In my experience as a "bad" player, it wasnt until Vanquisher that i finally can last long enough to fight back against the stealth god classes.

The Witch Elf and Witch Hunter are game uninstalling classes for the casual masses.

[M0rw47h]

Haha, dont tell me what to do
Yeah this game has lots of options and those are far beyond blob and solo roaming, true. But I tell you - no place, not a single serious organised warband any side is doing dedicated ST party in EU primetime for regular oRvR. Reasons are totally obvious - its just way too zergy for ST groups to matter, even then you roam around you will end up being in famous "heat" maps very soon as you will either encounter nothing or be rolled over by zerg.
Huge strawman to equalize each roaming 6 as "usually" ST party, you build one to farm kills, you wont farm dogs"t as pure ST party, you need to peel and burst, WL/mara shine there, anykind of SW/SH, BW/sorc. You can run WE/WH sure, but its suboptimal vs running WL of literally any spec or mara. Heck, even slayer/mDoK/choppa would be better all arounder then WE/WH. And to get the job done best you run 1-3-2 without mdps, you can only trade 1 rdps for WL/mara and it will obviously make you vulnarable as you will have only 1 guard which would be required to stick into mdps for most of the time, way lesser issues with RDPS as gl catching them all at once (if such happens it just means your 6 mess up big time, your party fault to be caught all at once).

People bring city and 6v6 ranked because its the edge, its the most intense, skillful content where every possible option is played to the fullest. Hence its relevant to do it. And both city and 6v6 have a space for WH/WE and they perform there okaish, not OP not useless.

Of course there is no point in bringing ST parties to zerg wars in prime time. It's also awful to roam as mDPS at those hours since it can be hard to disengage and kite blob without running into another blob at those hours, so it's easier to just pick 1/3/2 rDPS setup. Pull game on Mara/WL is more safe as well than engaging at all with Choppa/Slayer or even WE/WH... but you know, rDPS setup gets boring 1...2...3...dead target reapet, all in safety (100:5 k/d can be nothing unsual).

As you probably know roaming parties hate dying. They use PvE, rivers and lakes for kiting and every possible tool to avoid getting extra death in DB while perstering bigger groups. From my perspective pestering bigger groups was way more fun that being 1st in zone on kills during prime time roaming.

People bring City and 6v6 ranked, because they don't understand oRvR is sandbox, not a cage where you have to win or lose. In City and 6v6 ranked if you got unfavourable setup you will lose, in oRvR you will mostly likely just kite away, if person leading group decides to not stand still and die.

Why do I say this? Because we need bigger picture to understand that WE is worse mDPS for roaming same way as Shaman is worse healer than Zealot for roaming. Even if his ability to heal is worse, you get puddle than can decide if you get wiped or not.

...also I'd rather take WE into party (if I would have to 6 man roam once again) over mDoK anytime, you know why? Because WE it much better at disengaging and you know what? If my mDPS can disenege on it's own, probably my tanks can crossguard and I can just trolololo kite warband with Chosen M2 up, as I've done many times with 2/2/2 setup.

[nocturnalguest]

Of course there is no point in bringing ST parties to zerg wars in prime time. It's also awful to roam as mDPS at those hours since it can be hard to disengage and kite blob without running into another blob at those hours, so it's easier to just pick 1/3/2 rDPS setup. Pull game on Mara/WL is more safe as well than engaging at all with Choppa/Slayer or even WE/WH... but you know, rDPS setup gets boring 1...2...3...dead target reapet, all in safety (100:5 k/d can be nothing unsual).

As you probably know roaming parties hate dying. They use PvE, rivers and lakes for kiting and every possible tool to avoid getting extra death in DB while perstering bigger groups. From my perspective pestering bigger groups was way more fun that being 1st in zone on kills during prime time roaming.

People bring City and 6v6 ranked, because they don't understand oRvR is sandbox, not a cage where you have to win or lose. In City and 6v6 ranked if you got unfavourable setup you will lose, in oRvR you will mostly likely just kite away, if person leading group decides to not stand still and die.

Why do I say this? Because we need bigger picture to understand that WE is worse mDPS for roaming same way as Shaman is worse healer than Zealot for roaming. Even if his ability to heal is worse, you get puddle than can decide if you get wiped or not.

...also I'd rather take WE into party (if I would have to 6 man roam once again) over mDoK anytime, you know why? Because WE it much better at disengaging and you know what? If my mDPS can disenege on it's own, probably my tanks can crossguard and I can just trolololo kite warband with Chosen M2 up, as I've done many times with 2/2/2 setup.

Well, fair enough, great post, all true. Agree that kiting warbands is best fun if done well and you get kill and dont die, toptier gameplay. RDPS groups indeed gets very boring if done often.

You mention bigger picture, but thats actually the same story Severin has been doing, and me too. I didnt argue WE/WH has good disengage options but in current oRvR state you you've got not much use of them anyways.

I still stand on a point WE/WH need redesign tho, not cherrypick buff/nerf of random mentioned abilities like people say here. "How", "what" i dont have much clue myself, but all the time discussion is around one randomly cherrypicked ability looked at in a vacuum rather then some proper points are being made about their general gameplay and how they can fit better into various groups and what they should bring. They can do some nasty dmg, in 6men they are pretty much fine. Casuals have many issues with them during solo roaming but its not an issue overally. Cant find them good spot in WB.
What they should do in WB? ST? Then whole oRvR and (or) combat mechanics (as Sinisterror mentions) needs redesign. At the moment its not an option considering rest of stuff will stay.
They get AoE spec? As Sinisterror mention then they've had a "bug" with tactic and had AoE, they got a spot in warbands for a while, bringing some minor utility and dmg. It was cut off as bug fix.

I believe their redesign should be somehow done similar way as DoK/WP, they should have some spec specific restrictions to not have everything all at once. For example, if they go bruiser spec, then no stealth, if stealth then no sustain or limited escape options. But all those specs should get job done in unique way or they will have no identity once again...

I dunno what to do with WE/WH and got no proper suggestions, but rather then implementing something from this thread id rather just let them be as is.

[Sanctific]

Everyone talks about vanish, defensives & such yet c'mon guys, we've seen it all before in other games, there are counter-plays to that, you just gotta learn how to deal with that. I personally never had any fundamental issues in terms of combat on any of my characters (and i have pretty much all of the available ones in the game sufficiently leveled) with WHs/WEs. Yeah, I die to them frequently in solo environment, but those deaths are nothing extraordinary, nothing that cant be explained by a WHs/WEs skill (timing, env. awareness/usage, adaptive rotations, out of the box thinking etc), gear difference or pure luck (like statistically rare series of crits from a WH which would get you down to 0% over the duration of a single KD).

However, there is one and one issue alone I have with WEs and WHs. The name of it - Anathema/Agile Escape.

That ability to deprive you of your well-deserved kill vs an 80++ regen WE or ultra-dpsy WH who has been parrying 100% of your attacks for 12 sec straight - well, thats just disgusting.

IMO anathema/agile escape - that is something that truly should be reworked into something which wouldnt be a fight-resetting cheat, but a combat tool.

Possible solutions:
1. Remove stagger entirely, leaving the leap intact (the most adequate solution IMO, opens up tactical variety for the skill's usage as well, as in leaping away from an enemy's confusing movements without triggering immunity) <<- this one is actually a relatively elegant solution
2. Place a debuff, after that leap, which would prevent casting stealth for like 15 sec (vanish, as something which needs to be specced into would still need to work...would be on CD tho if WH plays seriously and used vanish to use 2nd out-of-stealth opener already)
3. At the very least making AE/Anathema a defendable skill would partially improve things and this backleap would no longer be as cheaty as it is now.

Not a game designer myself, so im pretty sure some significantly more elegant and not super-nerfy solutions may be thought of, yet my point is the following - having an ultimate "Well, i lost the fight but im not letting my opponent kill me regardless" mechanism doesnt sound right. It really is like using alt+f4 with no consequences at all.

[Illuminati]

I believe most of the community, once they have 100+ hours into studying the game and classes have the same frustrations.

Classes lack identify or had their identity moved to another class.
-Chosen Crippling Strikes removed, a weaker equivalent given to SMs.
-Sorc ST backloaded dmg given to BW and BW AoE given to sorc.
-Dok/WP shield spec.... wtf is that even?
-Classes that bypass all mitigation on execution abilities.
-Classes that dot, dot, dot, then channel for and have almost 0 counterplay, in an offspec ffs that rivals DPS classes.
-Unaddressed imbalanced abilities on 1 realm vs the other (e.g., SW jump back not requiring the target to defend where SH jump back doesn't work if the target defends, WL aoe vs Mara cone, etc. etc.).

I agree with whoever posted some of these classes need complete reworks.

The ability DB makes this a heck of a lot easier. Elixer and Cauldron should be moved to 13 point abilities. If you want to be invincible solo, which is a lot more of the game than our community would like to admit (e.g., box running, running to a keep, running to a wb, etc.) than you should pay for that invincibility.

[Stinkyweed]

playing a WE means that, if you are not severelly mentally handicapped, you can kill almost anything without breaking a sweat and you don't have to die

Hey, wait a second! I must be as you describe because I die A LOT!

[Pahakukka]

Also,
how many mdps have a ranged spammable dirt cheap attack that slows target if they don't kite perfectly or simply have latency issues?

Check last Daewurs video, where he clear and loud say that wh dont have normal snare and how easy to kite and kill wh. I dont know how in your eyes that excuse of snare is strong.

WH and WE are different on this matter btw, as WE also has access to snare proc weapon, so they are near impossible to be kited for any longer lenght of time. They get quite with their "charge"+leap and if shoot while kiting you get snarerd as its on being hit proc. Best case is to punt and stagger them and use improved flee to get the f away

Edit: 100% solo problem. Also not sure if wh gets this proc

[Shogun4138]

Agile escape has a delay.. usually, unless in a 1 on 1 situation. It doesn't work. Knockdown, snare. And other cc usually means death.

Our armor is so low that after one armor debuff, we blow up and die. Especially quick to die around warnands spamming aoe. Its insta death.

Our pounce only works from stealth and if the target is moving, we land away from them and they get away.

A lot of people who dont play a WE on here seem ti think we get all three trees maxed out. We dont. Just like you, we have to spec to do better against certain classes.

All our finishers have been nerfed into regular abilities. People can see us in stealth. Armor has been weakened so we are basically cloth wearers. Those who use regen have had their regen items nerfed.

Its a good class that is easily beaten, unless its played by a good player. Best solo classes out there are tanks and healers.

This is just my opinion.

[crystl32]

Also,
how many mdps have a ranged spammable dirt cheap attack that slows target if they don't kite perfectly or simply have latency issues?

Check last Daewurs video, where he clear and loud say that wh dont have normal snare and how easy to kite and kill wh. I dont know how in your eyes that excuse of snare is strong.

WH and WE are different on this matter btw, as WE also has access to snare proc weapon, so they are near impossible to be kited for any longer lenght of time. They get quite with their "charge"+leap and if shoot while kiting you get snarerd as its on being hit proc. Best case is to punt and stagger them and use improved flee to get the f away

Edit: 100% solo problem. Also not sure if wh gets this proc

Wh also gets snare proc weapon :;D
lets not forget that they can change them mid stealth when approaching giving them a side-board-like counter tool for specific oponents