A reflection on stealth classes

[M0rw47h]

if they dont have those perks there's literally zero reason to use wh instead of asw with 4k+ armor.

What about cool hat and mustache SW doesn't have? There are plenty reasons to play WH over aSW for "solo" I'd say as ex-SW main. Mostly because your 4k armor doesn't help against Magus and Sorc, and because that aSW doesn't have stealth at all to pick their fights or built in sustain... aSW is gimp WL with extra armor.

Both classes need hard quality of life rework to adjust new realities of game, but its for sure not another nerf because someone one see simple vanish mechanic "not fair". Its a lot deeper than that. Any normal city figth would illustrate perfectly how long wh/we would live in sweaty 24vs24 without target drop after killcommand with their name.

You know that people complain about oRvR which is 99% of content of this game? Why bring City?

[Sever1n]

Yeh this is going nowhere. I said what must be said in defence of classes, if some players dont see reason in that.... well hope devs see and do rigth choices in future reworks. Have fun with another 10 pages of this nonsense.

[M0rw47h]

Yeh this is going nowhere. I said what must be said in defence of classes, if some players dont see reason in that.... well hope devs see and do rigth choices in future reworks. Have fun with another 10 pages of this nonsense.

"My words are true wisdom, yours are nonsense" - it applies to your nonsense as well.

My point: its all subjective.

[Sever1n]

I will leave to decide if there a sense in my words to smart people and leave famous demagogy of this forum to people who enjoy it.

[nocturnalguest]

...

Anyone who was in ranked knows what ch+ch means for wh/we hiw their "op" def skills are completely uselles against it.

Both classes need hard quality of life rework to adjust new realities of game, but its for sure not another nerf because someone one see simple vanish mechanic "not fair". Its a lot deeper than that. Any normal city figth would illustrate perfectly how long wh/we would live in sweaty 24vs24 without target drop after killcommand with their name.

Good post man

Yeah, i believe this is pretty obvious summary of all previous WE/WH threads we've all had for past year. And also a very good reminder for everyone throwing out ideas of what to be changed - all of stuff in this thread is torn out of game environments and not taking scale into consideration and thus absolutely worthless, aka "your own solo issues" (c). RoR team will not balance only around your fancy solo adventure, they will consider organised and pug gameplay of larger scale (and make it as priority) and its pretty pointless to give ideas if you have no expereince in those and just run around solo ganking.

Definitely no nerfs anyhow needed, classes require incredibly big overhaul, unique roles and remake. Its definitely way more complex then "vanish is unfair".

You know that people complain about oRvR which is 99% of content of this game? Why bring City?

City is a very good example and i believe Severin is correct bringing it. Why? Because it was the only game environment where skilled WE/WH was in very high demand as 1 or 2 for 24 wb. Stake and ST parties were what was winning you fights. Result of totally sweaty match highly was in high dependancy of how great WE/WH will play.
There are no point to discuss WE/WH performance in oRvR as they have no worthy role there. They cant even properly pump, its just mathematically less effecient then any other options open to warband lead. Also oRvR has no place for ST parties, where both those classes are strong.
So city is the only relevant game mode to mention and discuss cause any change from solo roaming perspective will have effect in upper scale.

[Deadpoet]

I'm all for giving We/WH a huge buff and make them viable in larger contexts. Some people don't see any problem with the issues I've mentioned because they mostly do org warband content or 6v6 or whatever. I can see that you can't see where the problem is. Fair enough. Sadly, more and more people I talk to ingame are increasingly fed up with the situation. If the changes I suggest are game breaking and absurd, let history of the game and general consensus judge. That's all. I might be wrong. Both the eye test and the statistics of encounters outside 24 vs 24 seem to indicate otherwise. Regarding the sociological feeling of having had way more than enough I can detect, it's hard to deny.

[nocturnalguest]

I'm all for giving We/WH a huge buff and make them viable in larger contexts. Some people don't see any problem with the issues I've mentioned because they mostly do org warband content or 6v6 or whatever. I can see that you can't see where the problem is. Fair enough. Sadly, more and more people I talk to ingame are increasingly fed up with the situation. If the changes I suggest are game breaking and absurd, let history of the game and general consensus judge. That's all. I might be wrong. Both the eye test and the statistics of encounters outside 24 vs 24 seem to indicate otherwise. Regarding the sociological feeling of having had way more than enough I can detect, it's hard to deny.

Nah nah, dont go out in shiny armor into the sunset so easily man

Your information is nothing new, everyone knows that. Definition and depth of what to consider "problem" is where you dont have clear consensus.
People being fed up is not an argument for balance.
In all those years there has been 0 (zero) well thought out suggestions of what to do with WE/WH that would not be OP/huge nerf hammer hit into other scales of gameplay. RoR balance team are also players and aint wizards, i suspect they have no clue of how to fix situation properly too.

Also in regards of statistics, you can clearly check on killboard that even most skilled defWE's die to many classes and end up being killed by lots of classes. Ive did some very brief analytics on that and posted it on forums in one of WE threads. I can link if you interested (edit: it was easy to find, viewtopic.php?t=59520&start=20#p584265 further in a thread there are screenshots with erased names for some encounters).

As for sociological feeling, yeah ok, i dont deny it, but as the result its more satisfying to kill such WE rather then other players. Just as its very satisfying to kill famous elite player who like to end up their play session with 200-0 KDR

Point is - WE/WH cant handle small/big nerfs/buffs, they have to be redesigned fully. Both of them.

[sven85z]

The worst thing about we and wh is their ability to run away from a fight they started once they feel they will lose that **** sucks for the rest of us.

[M0rw47h]

City is a very good example and i believe Severin is correct bringing it. Why? Because it was the only game environment where skilled WE/WH was in very high demand as 1 or 2 for 24 wb. Stake and ST parties were what was winning you fights. Result of totally sweaty match highly was in high dependancy of how great WE/WH will play.
There are no point to discuss WE/WH performance in oRvR as they have no worthy role there. They cant even properly pump, its just mathematically less effecient then any other options open to warband lead. Also oRvR has no place for ST parties, where both those classes are strong.
So city is the only relevant game mode to mention and discuss cause any change from solo roaming perspective will have effect in upper scale.

It's oRvR game, City is just side content, which couldn't exist at all. It should matter for balance even less than 1v1.
Don't tell me oRvR has no place for ST parties, as every roaming party usualy is ST party. This game isn't just WB blobbing and solo roaming.

People love to bring City as role model for WB gameplay and 6v6 ranked for smallscale, but both of those examples are quite insane as they are INSTANCED pvp in OPEN world pvp game. Competly different things decide about success in different environments.

Ergo, balancing game around City and Ranked, is like balancing classes around Gunbad performance.

[nocturnalguest]

It's oRvR game, City is just side content, which couldn't exist at all. It should matter for balance even less than 1v1.
Don't tell me oRvR has no place for ST parties, as every roaming party usualy is ST party. This game isn't just WB blobbing and solo roaming.

People love to bring City as role model for WB gameplay and 6v6 ranked for smallscale, but both of those examples are quite insane as they are INSTANCED pvp in OPEN world pvp game. Competly different things decide about success in different environments.

Haha, dont tell me what to do
Yeah this game has lots of options and those are far beyond blob and solo roaming, true. But I tell you - no place, not a single serious organised warband any side is doing dedicated ST party in EU primetime for regular oRvR. Reasons are totally obvious - its just way too zergy for ST groups to matter, even then you roam around you will end up being in famous "heat" maps very soon as you will either encounter nothing or be rolled over by zerg.
Huge strawman to equalize each roaming 6 as "usually" ST party, you build one to farm kills, you wont farm dogs"t as pure ST party, you need to peel and burst, WL/mara shine there, anykind of SW/SH, BW/sorc. You can run WE/WH sure, but its suboptimal vs running WL of literally any spec or mara. Heck, even slayer/mDoK/choppa would be better all arounder then WE/WH. And to get the job done best you run 1-3-2 without mdps, you can only trade 1 rdps for WL/mara and it will obviously make you vulnarable as you will have only 1 guard which would be required to stick into mdps for most of the time, way lesser issues with RDPS as gl catching them all at once (if such happens it just means your 6 mess up big time, your party fault to be caught all at once).

People bring city and 6v6 ranked because its the edge, its the most intense, skillful content where every possible option is played to the fullest. Hence its relevant to do it. And both city and 6v6 have a space for WH/WE and they perform there okaish, not OP not useless.