A reflection on stealth classes

[abezverkhiy]

@Ramihrdus “Witch hunters is really the only class I have a problem with and that is mainly because of their stagger (I think it's called).
It's way too powerful for a class that can kill you as fast as they can.”
Stagger of the same power is available to WE’s, Engi/Magi, Runi/Zealots and maybe to a few more classes. Probably you met WH’s who timed it right

@Sinisterror Mate I seriously do not understand all this fuss about 7 sec of disrupt and undefendable abilities. Seeing disrupt or 100% parry? Disengage. Undefendable attacks? Other classes have it too. Eg SM has undefendable damaging skill without any cooldown, it only requires an ability of a basic stance to be precast. In other words – every 2nd SM attack can be undefendable. And there are SMs who cant kill WE’s… Charge needs to stay as long as kite exists, before it was introduced WH/WE were an appetizer for every RDPS. Even now they are for some, esp for defensive Magi/Engi

@Moonbiter “Nufin fine with vanish:
1. Its undefendabe/uncounterable
2. Nufin cost
3. Available for All(!) builds
4. Ruin fair duels”
1. Healpots, heal skills, protective auras, guard are also undefendabe/uncounterable
2. It comes with a price – having used it you can’t use other two very good abilities for another 1 minute which is alot
3. Not true
4. So do block, damage absorb, pushback that gives no immunity.
I think you chose a wrong game if you look for fair duels. And you clearly do not know WH/WE class. No wonder you die to them. Go read their forum and learn how to counter them.

[Deadpoet]

Another post on someone who cant kill a WE/WH. Probably the easiest class to kill. Next to rSH or SW.

Yep, definitely def/regen WE is probably the easiest class to kill


I have played WE till rr81

I didn't die to anyone 1v1 or even1vx unless I was extremely unlucky or I screwed up big time with a chain of serious unlikely mistakes.

I could escape almost every situation, and I don't consider myself a skilled player. Quite the contrary, actually.

The problem is that even if you manage to win vs a WE, you can't win because...guess what? You can't kill them. And speed vanish is the main reason for that.

I think we need a little historical perspective.

Wes ddnt have elixir of shadows for years.

They were a perfectly capable class, even OP.

Just don't cheat roamers of their deserved win when they earn it.

Being able to pick your fights, choosing the most appropriate set of tactics before the engagement, plus morale2 100% parry/dodge to restealth, + stun+backflip (SIX seconds stagger!!!!) isn't enough?

[Alubert]

You should start with two things:
1. Remove WE absorb tactics.
2. Outgoing HD and incoming HD should work on regen.

[M0rw47h]

You should start with two things:
2. Outgoing HD and incoming HD should work on regen.

You would kill all regen builds at once and make dps healers dominant more than ever.

[Sever1n]

I would give everybody same amount of health regen and removed that stat from game. Something like 300 per5. And added for all class long casted healing skill so people dont suffer so hard from instadoters in case they dont have pokeckethealing slaves 24/7. Regen is bane only of solo gaming. Equalising sustatin options between everybody would be good move. Some clases cant just afford to use regen cos they lose effectiveness, while others can abuse it freely without any big dmg loss. But those just a dreams.

[georgehabadasher]

One point that no one has mentioned is that WE/WH's have higher base initiative than other mdps. This is further compounded by how much initiative is on mdps gear generally. Because of how the stealth calculation works, this means that it's extremely hard to detect a BIS WE/WH, and even harder to knock them out of stealth, even when you hit them. In my experience, it's more likely to kill a BIS WH/WE from full health, than knock them out of stealth with direct damage.

Also, the WE/WH self-punt is undefendable (which means the 6s stagger with 10s of immunity is also undefendable).

Also, Shroud of Magnus/Elixir of the Cauldron are the only skills in the game that make you immune to damage from dots that are already applied to you. In the case of every other 100% avoidance ability (Repel Blasphemy, Confusing Movements, Untouchable, Shield Wall, Concealment, etc.), the player still receives full damage from DoTs already applied to him.

In addition to other aspects of the classes discussed above, these buffs have severely warped the risk/reward aspects of these classes--and the reason they feel so unfair in small scale compared to other strong solo classes like dps shaman and WL. When they are played patiently and well, they can choose their fights and disengage at will.

If this were any other private server, it would almost feel like a developer in charge of balance gave a bunch of buffs to the class he played.

[M0rw47h]

If I had to suggest something to make WH/WE less toxic in lakes, then:
1. Self punt should deal fall damage;
2. Disable Incognito and Shadow Prowler in combat.

So no safety after failing...

[nocturnalguest]

I would give everybody same amount of health regen and removed that stat from game. Something like 300 per5. And added for all class long casted healing skill so people dont suffer so hard from instadoters in case they dont have pokeckethealing slaves 24/7. Regen is bane only of solo gaming. Equalising sustatin options between everybody would be good move. Some clases cant just afford to use regen cos they lose effectiveness, while others can abuse it freely without any big dmg loss. But those just a dreams.

Such modern approach is also a good strategic option. Introduce solo selfsustain (WoW, GW2, ESO etc) for each and every class and 300hp/4 sec regen (gotta also solve few issues in solo pve on some classes). However as was already mentioned DPS healers will be total nightmare and dominate solo roaming scene

[Deadpoet]

If you remove a charge from MDPS it will just be kited and destroyed, too many RDPS kiters everywhere. Don't do that.

I would generally agree with you, but elixir of shadows/sanctified oil compared to mdps normal charge is like comparing a Mercedes Benz to an old bycicle.
Also,
how many mdps have a ranged spammable dirt cheap attack that slows target if they don't kite perfectly or simply have latency issues?

Isn't a 30ft ranged KD something slayers would kill for? (ofc WL lion kd is better and more range and mara KD is shorter but Aoe, although is stance tied and has to be specced for)

Isn't stealth far superior to charge? Just ask any mdps class to choose between the two. Flee+AP pot and renown and gera speed procs can do wonders. Stealth is just another universe.

But, most importantly:

Historically, for years stealth classes in RoR didn't have speed vanish. Heck, Wes diodn't even have range KD at first. And they were a terror in the lakes. You can check old forums and videos and veterans will tell you. They were real burst pure dps classes back then. Not this holy s hit monstrosities. The problem is that speed vanish is an unnecessary icing on the cake when paired with so many absorb+regen+free stat build + insane escape tools.

And yes, I agree that everyone with an unbiased mind is aware that suffering WEs are a cancer and have been for some time.

I think every skilled and self respecting WE player would prefer to have crit damage tactic back and not all this def nonsense.

[Sever1n]

Also,
how many mdps have a ranged spammable dirt cheap attack that slows target if they don't kite perfectly or simply have latency issues?

Check last Daewurs video, where he clear and loud say that wh dont have normal snare and how easy to kite and kill wh. I dont know how in your eyes that excuse of snare is strong.

Drugon gun or OYK are rarely used finisher nowadays con it consume combopoint after use leading to lose of time for burst/quick use 5point finisher like bal or brew. Nowadays it really rarely used skill but again you display its "superiority"

And good luck to catch any normal sh without oil. You will be just meat in his target after jump. In case of normal instadoter good luck not decay from existance in +-10sec with you 8k hp pool if you pref oil over magnus. In full glass it always huge question between seal/oil against hard target.

Yes they have 1 potential jail free card, but they pay for it hard and anyone who lvled them knows how, if they dont have those perks there's literally zero reason to use wh instead of asw with 4k+ armor. Only anomaly there is def we, and their OP part comes not from not from elixir. On top of that there was huge hidden nerfs of stealth mechanics and even selfpunt. Anyone who played wh/we noticed them instantly. Anyone who was in ranked knows what ch+ch means for wh/we hiw their "op" def skills are completely uselles against it.

Both classes need hard quality of life rework to adjust new realities of game, but its for sure not another nerf because someone one see simple vanish mechanic "not fair". Its a lot deeper than that. Any normal city figth would illustrate perfectly how long wh/we would live in sweaty 24vs24 without target drop after killcommand with their name.