[scenarios] barriers

[Bozzax]

Let me rephrase
The direction of sc development last decade has been made from the perspective of a small minority of wrong ppl

The result speaks for itself

[calipso]

In short sc direction and development has been spearheaded by people not playing scenarios for 10 years

Quite the opposite, it was made by/with suggestions from the people who spammed scenarios mostly with a 6 man party at the time

Are you referring to ranked or normal scenarios?
I doubt there is proof where 6 man proposed to add barriers and move guards on regular scenarios, on the contrary, they have been very vocal on how bad normal scenarios are working nowadays.
And, in case they were promoting normal scenarios to be a slaughter, change made by Dev was really bad. Since scenario had room for every single style of game play, solo, duo, 3m and so on, change, again, was implemented without any thought, for obvious reasons.

[agemennon675]

In short sc direction and development has been spearheaded by people not playing scenarios for 10 years

Quite the opposite, it was made by/with suggestions from the people who spammed scenarios mostly with a 6 man party at the time

Are you referring to ranked or normal scenarios?
I doubt there is proof where 6 man proposed to add barriers and move guards on regular scenarios, on the contrary, they have been very vocal on how bad normal scenarios are working nowadays.
And, in case they were promoting normal scenarios to be a slaughter, change made by Dev was really bad. Since scenario had room for every single style of game play, solo, duo, 3m and so on, change, again, was implemented without any thought, for obvious reasons.

Yes we see a lot of feedback about the scenarios in the forums lately I am just trying to explain why these changes made months ago I am referring to the changes to scenario matchmaker/adding barriers and kicking players that wait in spawn etc. they were all made by player suggestions I am sure you can find videos of it from streamers channels when these changes were made

[calipso]

Quite the opposite, it was made by/with suggestions from the people who spammed scenarios mostly with a 6 man party at the time

Are you referring to ranked or normal scenarios?
I doubt there is proof where 6 man proposed to add barriers and move guards on regular scenarios, on the contrary, they have been very vocal on how bad normal scenarios are working nowadays.
And, in case they were promoting normal scenarios to be a slaughter, change made by Dev was really bad. Since scenario had room for every single style of game play, solo, duo, 3m and so on, change, again, was implemented without any thought, for obvious reasons.

Yes we see a lot of feedback about the scenarios in the forums lately I am just trying to explain why these changes made months ago I am referring to the changes to scenario matchmaker/adding barriers and kicking players that wait in spawn etc. they were all made by player suggestions I am sure you can find videos of it from streamers channels when these changes were made

It is very interesting you mentioned streamers, beacuse there was ONLY one who talked about those changes to be implemented, straight to a well known person, a year ago (we know who). That weekend barriers were added.
Everything kept on his stream video.
I won’t be redundant over the matter, but proof was given to Team, for them to see why such patch was up and running, since many voices raised over the forum against change. That video was removed next day, yet was part of his video collection for weeks.
Coincidence? I think not.
After that, Devs made a thread asking “how to improve scenarios”, which i mentioned in another post.
Before this, you can’t find any post nor other streams crying out loud for barriers to be added, non of that.
Funny thing is, same guy asking for that change ain’t playing anymore. Perhaps he ended up so many times slaughtered, decided to stop. Bit of own medicine can be overwhelming.
So im going to toss you same task, check for streamers or proof that 6m preamde allegedly called for such patch.

[Aethilmar]

Ps quitter should be taken out as well as it actually increases the frequency of **** lineups and gives strong sides to high crest earnings. Let scs end by playing the objectives instead of teaching players objectives are secondary

Calling this out in general because it is super important. This and the .surrender option was added to "fix" a problem of the devs own making and all it did, in the end, was teach people to to surrender instead of learning how to play in a SC. Even groups sometimes need some time to figure out how to deal with the other team and forcing people out into a meat grinder is just a miserable gaming experience.

[JohnnyWayne]

Before the changes related to SC matchmaking come into effect, you can quickly deal with prem farming pugs.

Yes and you had range premades withdrawing into guards or warcamps to farm enemies. And no, you could not just "let them be" that is not something you can do against a range premade that consantly harrases you. Until a better solution is found, this is certainly the better of the two bad ones that currently exist.

One idea is making the barriers passable again after like 30 seconds once you passed them.

Are you sure this is real and not pretend? It's a non issue if you get farmed near the enemy warcamp. What are you even doing there? Spawncamping? If so you should be punished for it and it's good the enemy sniped you. I can't think of one scenario where the spawn is so close to an objective that it would matter. Please explainand give an example of a scenario where this matters (excluding 6v6 ranked).

That is something people don't grasp. There is a thing called momentum. You usually don't just roll over the enemy, but you build up momentum. Usually it ends at the WC and when you retreat to the BO you can't as long as you get harrased from range dps. Trust me, I've been on both ends of that spectrum, harassing and being harrased by range dps. I think you should be able to return to the spawn to have a save zone after you've left it for a while so you cant pop in and out. For example, serpents passage used to be a range premade heaven without the protective walls. Even when they lost they could kill enemies from the spawn and once they retreated, instantly follow them to snack kills. There is no retreating form a spawn where range dps can snack easy kills and gain momentum for free.

So what?
If they don't want to, they don't have to attack the WC.
The point is that the opponent shouldn't be able to get a free kill just because you crossed the barrier.

Especially since we all know how mele train vs Rdps ends.

Rdps has to kite, and if there's nowhere to go, i.e. the WC, it equals a dead Rdps.

To those who don't see the problem.
Imagine that the devs come up with a wonderful idea (like they did with barriers in SC) and surround the entire ORVR with a barrier, including the WC. Once you leave, you can't come back.

I see that there are those who still don't see what is obvious to others. Like back when some defend SL broken Rampage.

That is where you are wrong. They HAVE to attack the warcamp to use the momentum they've built. To reform, people who get dominated should be able to get back into the spawn, after a while at least. If the enemy sticks too long o the WC however, they should get the debuff that mirrors the buff once you leave the spawn.

And why shouldn't there be SCs where ranged dominate?

Why shouldn't rampage be broken? There, you got your answer. Some people man....

[calipso]

Spoiler:

Yes and you had range premades withdrawing into guards or warcamps to farm enemies. And no, you could not just "let them be" that is not something you can do against a range premade that consantly harrases you. Until a better solution is found, this is certainly the better of the two bad ones that currently exist.

One idea is making the barriers passable again after like 30 seconds once you passed them.

Are you sure this is real and not pretend? It's a non issue if you get farmed near the enemy warcamp. What are you even doing there? Spawncamping? If so you should be punished for it and it's good the enemy sniped you. I can't think of one scenario where the spawn is so close to an objective that it would matter. Please explainand give an example of a scenario where this matters (excluding 6v6 ranked).

That is something people don't grasp. There is a thing called momentum. You usually don't just roll over the enemy, but you build up momentum. Usually it ends at the WC and when you retreat to the BO you can't as long as you get harrased from range dps. Trust me, I've been on both ends of that spectrum, harassing and being harrased by range dps. I think you should be able to return to the spawn to have a save zone after you've left it for a while so you cant pop in and out. For example, serpents passage used to be a range premade heaven without the protective walls. Even when they lost they could kill enemies from the spawn and once they retreated, instantly follow them to snack kills. There is no retreating form a spawn where range dps can snack easy kills and gain momentum for free.

So what?
If they don't want to, they don't have to attack the WC.
The point is that the opponent shouldn't be able to get a free kill just because you crossed the barrier.

Especially since we all know how mele train vs Rdps ends.

Rdps has to kite, and if there's nowhere to go, i.e. the WC, it equals a dead Rdps.

To those who don't see the problem.
Imagine that the devs come up with a wonderful idea (like they did with barriers in SC) and surround the entire ORVR with a barrier, including the WC. Once you leave, you can't come back.

I see that there are those who still don't see what is obvious to others. Like back when some defend SL broken Rampage.

That is where you are wrong. They HAVE to attack the warcamp to use the momentum they've built. To reform, people who get dominated should be able to get back into the spawn, after a while at least. If the enemy sticks too long o the WC however, they should get the debuff that mirrors the buff once you leave the spawn.

And why shouldn't there be SCs where ranged dominate?

Why shouldn't rampage be broken? There, you got your answer. Some people man....

I understand your point of view but, as others, i also got mine.
When patch was released, it didn’t mentioned such thing like we added barriers so rdps can’t kite inside.
Ive also been in both sides, pushing or being pushed, and if you couldn’t get back to BO it was more a matter of your kitting. I assume you were able to push having tanks, same tanks can hold the line and keep rdps in their place meantime you are kitting back. This scenario not only happens in mini maps, we see this every day in orvr. And let’s remind ourselves scenarios were designed based on orvr, some of them having the possibility to get back to starting point and others don’t. And those which don’t, they implemented guards and give to the underdog the chance of comeback.
Failure was made after that changed, making scenarios nothing but a slaughter game.
I still think if you totally change a game mode based on a class, then we got 2 different ways: either rdps has balanced problems or is a lf git good.
There are no changes in rvr based on a class.
Now, im a bit confused with your statement:
“—I think you should be able to return to the spawn to have a save zone after you've left it for a while —“

Im here with you there

“—-so you cant pop in and out.—“

This looks like a contradiction just straight away in same sentence.

Then you continued:

“— Even when they lost they could kill enemies from the spawn—“

Because enemy was still standing there, trying I don’t know what other than harass the underdog?
The heaven, as you described, were guards doing their job, protecting respawn, like his big brother rvr, so scenario wouldn’t be a slaughter.

About the buff introduced: I regularly play as part of a premade and i have never seen this buff being useful. Underdog never recover.
Tbh it feels like a carrot to a beaten horse, a rotten one.

[Aethilmar]

Some strange stuff about "momentum" to justify melee ball meat grinder play ...

What is the point of Serpent's Passage (or any SC)?

The answer is, as always, to get to 500 points before your opponent.

In the case of Serpent's Passage the primary means of doing so is running the part ... or at least is used to be before the changes to force people into a meat grinder.

These theoretical master kiters your mention that pull you to their warcamp and then nibble on you as you retreat can't stop the part from being run. They have already lost. You are just upset they can actually still fight back. Its this attitude that got some of the other scenarios where it was possible to move around the enemy and get points (Blood of the Black Cairn and Thunder Valley) turned from free flowing cap-based play into set progression with pinch points.

Heaven forbid that a less powerful team have way to get points or have fun. And heaven forbid that "elite" premades might have to split up to hunt folks down or possibly lose especially when splitting up makes the vulnerable to getting killed in pieces and bruising some egos.

To quote you " Some people man...."

[JohnnyWayne]

I understand your point of view but, as others, i also got mine.
When patch was released, it didn’t mentioned such thing like we added barriers so rdps can’t kite inside.
Ive also been in both sides, pushing or being pushed, and if you couldn’t get back to BO it was more a matter of your kitting. I assume you were able to push having tanks, same tanks can hold the line and keep rdps in their place meantime you are kitting back. This scenario not only happens in mini maps, we see this every day in orvr. And let’s remind ourselves scenarios were designed based on orvr, some of them having the possibility to get back to starting point and others don’t. And those which don’t, they implemented guards and give to the underdog the chance of comeback.
Failure was made after that changed, making scenarios nothing but a slaughter game.
I still think if you totally change a game mode based on a class, then we got 2 different ways: either rdps has balanced problems or is a lf git good.
There are no changes in rvr based on a class.
Now, im a bit confused with your statement:
“—I think you should be able to return to the spawn to have a save zone after you've left it for a while —“

Im here with you there

“—-so you cant pop in and out.—“

This looks like a contradiction just straight away in same sentence.

Then you continued:

“— Even when they lost they could kill enemies from the spawn—“

Because enemy was still standing there, trying I don’t know what other than harass the underdog?
The heaven, as you described, were guards doing their job, protecting respawn, like his big brother rvr, so scenario wouldn’t be a slaughter.

About the buff introduced: I regularly play as part of a premade and i have never seen this buff being useful. Underdog never recover.
Tbh it feels like a carrot to a beaten horse, a rotten one.

Ok so, if there is a lockout until you can pass the barrier again, you can no longer pop in and out. That is my point. You can go out of the spawn and return inside 30 seconds later. If you move out again, you'd have to wait another 30 seconds.

If you run SnB tanks in small scale / scs you are doing it wrong, so no hold the line. Also that doesn't really matter for a proper one shot setup from 3 full sov rdps. The change was not done based on "a class" but an entire archetype.

And yes, before the walls, range dps premades sacrificed their pugs in order to kite back until they reached their spawn, to safely farm kills.

Some strange stuff about "momentum" to justify melee ball meat grinder play ...

What is the point of Serpent's Passage (or any SC)?

The answer is, as always, to get to 500 points before your opponent.

In the case of Serpent's Passage the primary means of doing so is running the part ... or at least is used to be before the changes to force people into a meat grinder.

These theoretical master kiters your mention that pull you to their warcamp and then nibble on you as you retreat can't stop the part from being run. They have already lost. You are just upset they can actually still fight back. Its this attitude that got some of the other scenarios where it was possible to move around the enemy and get points (Blood of the Black Cairn and Thunder Valley) turned from free flowing cap-based play into set progression with pinch points.

Heaven forbid that a less powerful team have way to get points or have fun. And heaven forbid that "elite" premades might have to split up to hunt folks down or possibly lose especially when splitting up makes the vulnerable to getting killed in pieces and bruising some egos.

To quote you " Some people man...."

It is people like you who don't understand complex systems and their interactions. "Focus the objective, duh". Leads nowhere, you'll lose and get farmed. I think you lack the overall understanding of how this little game works they play. Or rather, even I play. Remove the barriers, go ahead. I'll fester you into oblivion.

[calipso]

Spoiler:

I understand your point of view but, as others, i also got mine.
When patch was released, it didn’t mentioned such thing like we added barriers so rdps can’t kite inside.
Ive also been in both sides, pushing or being pushed, and if you couldn’t get back to BO it was more a matter of your kitting. I assume you were able to push having tanks, same tanks can hold the line and keep rdps in their place meantime you are kitting back. This scenario not only happens in mini maps, we see this every day in orvr. And let’s remind ourselves scenarios were designed based on orvr, some of them having the possibility to get back to starting point and others don’t. And those which don’t, they implemented guards and give to the underdog the chance of comeback.
Failure was made after that changed, making scenarios nothing but a slaughter game.
I still think if you totally change a game mode based on a class, then we got 2 different ways: either rdps has balanced problems or is a lf git good.
There are no changes in rvr based on a class.
Now, im a bit confused with your statement:
“—I think you should be able to return to the spawn to have a save zone after you've left it for a while —“

Im here with you there

“—-so you cant pop in and out.—“

This looks like a contradiction just straight away in same sentence.

Then you continued:

“— Even when they lost they could kill enemies from the spawn—“

Because enemy was still standing there, trying I don’t know what other than harass the underdog?
The heaven, as you described, were guards doing their job, protecting respawn, like his big brother rvr, so scenario wouldn’t be a slaughter.

About the buff introduced: I regularly play as part of a premade and i have never seen this buff being useful. Underdog never recover.
Tbh it feels like a carrot to a beaten horse, a rotten one.

Ok so, if there is a lockout until you can pass the barrier again, you can no longer pop in and out. That is my point. You can go out of the spawn and return inside 30 seconds later. If you move out again, you'd have to wait another 30 seconds.

If you run SnB tanks in small scale / scs you are doing it wrong, so no hold the line. Also that doesn't really matter for a proper one shot setup from 3 full sov rdps. The change was not done based on "a class" but an entire archetype.

And yes, before the walls, range dps premades sacrificed their pugs in order to kite back until they reached their spawn, to safely farm kills.

Some strange stuff about "momentum" to justify melee ball meat grinder play ...

What is the point of Serpent's Passage (or any SC)?

The answer is, as always, to get to 500 points before your opponent.

In the case of Serpent's Passage the primary means of doing so is running the part ... or at least is used to be before the changes to force people into a meat grinder.

These theoretical master kiters your mention that pull you to their warcamp and then nibble on you as you retreat can't stop the part from being run. They have already lost. You are just upset they can actually still fight back. Its this attitude that got some of the other scenarios where it was possible to move around the enemy and get points (Blood of the Black Cairn and Thunder Valley) turned from free flowing cap-based play into set progression with pinch points.

Heaven forbid that a less powerful team have way to get points or have fun. And heaven forbid that "elite" premades might have to split up to hunt folks down or possibly lose especially when splitting up makes the vulnerable to getting killed in pieces and bruising some egos.

To quote you " Some people man...."

It is people like you who don't understand complex systems and their interactions. "Focus the objective, duh". Leads nowhere, you'll lose and get farmed. I think you lack the overall understanding of how this little game works they play. Or rather, even I play. Remove the barriers, go ahead. I'll fester you into oblivion.

Yet then again, patch notes didn’t mentioned such change was made to catch an “archetype “, or am i missing something? And if it was the case: why should a game mode completely change due to a player not being able to adapt because his stubbornness? Because you want to play tank dps instead snb to deal with rdps in scenarios, you made them a Dead Match? (Btw they should also change the name itself to that)
I don’t think that’s fair.
Sometimes is not easy to wear other’s boots, but bear with me.
What was the purpose of scenarios? Cap BOs, team who cap and keep them through kills win. I know, this is “yada yada” for you, but it is what it is.
If you want to only get kills through scenarios and play dps tank without having to adapt to a map or certain archetype, then do ranked, where BOs doesn’t matter at all and your SnB is not needed. Or, instead, ask Devs to do Dead Matchs “scenarios” (wait i just told you to play them ).
This i don’t blame you, because through the introduction of sc weekend event, one of the tasks is always “kill x players”, which promotes that kind of behaviour. But even there, they are asking you to cap BOs (terrible task to do ngl, mostly due to other realm using surrender).
As said it before, some tweaks here and there would have been more than enough to fix, if there was even any, sc maps.