[BG] The Black Guard's Purpose?

[nocturnalguest]

Interesting.. not the overall greatest of news as it stands. Aesthetically I may just stick with it, and I like having debuffs and whatnot. But, it does bug me to see a Black Ork or a Chosen wade in and do so much whereas I have more issues. Especially with that apparently very crucial skill being so deep in the Right Hand tree, and I really need a lot from the middle. Oof.

You came into second worst place to ask "general" questions (worse is only in-game). There are no known issues with "squishiness" or "OPness" for any of 6 tanks both sides. All of them can be build offensive, all of them can be build defensive, all of them have crucial things to bring for groups.

All tanks are absolutely viable and have their own places and shine in their own niches depending on group compositions. As for BG its viable in all possible content both as either SnB or 2h, its up to how parties will be built and what for - BG is best option to support heavy AoE spam and for regular typical warbands 4 chosen slots are already locked so competetion is BG vs BO and main question is how DPS are specced and what is the purpose of party.

[Gladiolix]

A good player on "bad" class is way better than bad player on "meta" class, especially true with tanks IMO.

People tend to list all the bad things their class have and good things the OTHER classes, and never the good things they have and that other people dont (+ downplay how good their strong points are). EDIT: Textbook example of this right below . I would ignore all the discouragement on playing on a character that you enjoy playing.

Also regarding the OP question: "Is the purpose of a BG really just.. a couple of debuffs?"
Pretty much yeah, but thats true on every other tank too (simplified SnB selling points to warband play): Chosen/Kotbs = aura bots, BO = Speed buff, SM/BG = Cooldown reducer, IB = superb single target buffer

[Florian90210]

BG is worst tank rn.
It does feel that defence stats in paperdoll are far from reality, I guess BG feels squishier because this class don't have damage reduction abilities. And I don't think there is a way to reproduce blob attack and analyze it.

BG is bad because:

• it require to manage not only AP, but also Hate.
• Your buffs and debuffs mostly ST and they cost AP or Hate, GCD. Compare it to kotbs and chosen auras which don't require anything, AoE, buff AND debuff at same time.
• Your strong Willpower buff cool, but if you give it to healer, that means you can't generate hate from your dps buddy.
• Your one of the best ability "Crimson Death" too high on dmg tree, kotbs can do it too with cheaper tactic and + guaranteed AoE wounds debuff, while BG's wounds debuff require not only tactic but get triggered only on critical hit (lol)
• CDR is cool, but it only works in highly coordinated groups and now shamans can do it too now btw.
• Even in dps tank meme build you still do less damage then other tanks. (no WS buffs for you)
• With recent changes your punt is no longer the best, kotbs and chosen punt you with moon like gravity (unlike BO's punt) and put you out of battle for long time and good distance. Also again, you need to build 100 hate. So every first engagement you will be out, because kotbs don't need to build anything, you go flying instantly.

[nocturnalguest]

A good player on "bad" class is way better than bad player on "meta" class, especially true with tanks IMO.

People tend to list all the bad things their class have and good things the OTHER classes, and never the good things they have and that other people dont (+ downplay how good their strong points are). EDIT: Textbook example of this right below . I would ignore all the discouragement on playing on a character that you enjoy playing.

Also regarding the OP question: "Is the purpose of a BG really just.. a couple of debuffs?"
Pretty much yeah, but thats true on every other tank too (simplified SnB selling points to warband play): Chosen/Kotbs = aura bots, BO = Speed buff, SM/BG = Cooldown reducer, IB = superb single target buffer

This
Oh yeah, its very typical forum behaviour - to look into things without any real context, in total vacuum. 10+ pages of cherry picking one ability and comparing it with the other totally irrelevant ability which serves other purpose etc. People are so in love with such "exercises" ha


Can use this to fuel up some discussion

BG is worst tank rn.
It does feel that defence stats in paperdoll are far from reality, I guess BG feels squishier because this class don't have damage reduction abilities. And I don't think there is a way to reproduce blob attack and analyze it.

BG is bad because:

• it require to manage not only AP, but also Hate.
• Your buffs and debuffs mostly ST and they cost AP or Hate, GCD. Compare it to kotbs and chosen auras which don't require anything, AoE, buff AND debuff at same time.
• Your strong Willpower buff cool, but if you give it to healer, that means you can't generate hate from your dps buddy.
• Your one of the best ability "Crimson Death" too high on dmg tree, kotbs can do it too with cheaper tactic and + guaranteed AoE wounds debuff, while BG's wounds debuff require not only tactic but get triggered only on critical hit (lol)
• CDR is cool, but it only works in highly coordinated groups and now shamans can do it too now btw.
• Even in dps tank meme build you still do less damage then other tanks. (no WS buffs for you)
• With recent changes your punt is no longer the best, kotbs and chosen punt you with moon like gravity (unlike BO's punt) and put you out of battle for long time and good distance. Also again, you need to build 100 hate. So every first engagement you will be out, because kotbs don't need to build anything, you go flying instantly.

1. Tankiness
There is no need to reproduce them, there are enough tools to analyze it, including fancy web one where you just upload your combatlog and it pictures modern infographics. Can share if needed
BG generally is one of the best possible turtles (if you for whatever reason want to build one, but quick note - in most content its suboptimal choice for any tank class), its your best possible option as a support/turtle in most competetive part of environment - city sieges, stage 3. You always want BG as your champion, its of no match, not a single other tank is so strong for that task.

2. Hate
All but 2 classes (RP/Zealot) has some kind of class mechanics they have to "manage". Typical strawman argument.
Its a matter of choice if mechanics are your thing or not, there are no "effeciency" drawbacks and "Hate" requirements balance how strong skills tied into it are.

3. Buffs/debuffs
Huge strawman again. Most important auras require mastery point. Ok, so what overlaps you do see with kotbs/chosen huh? Kotbs brings resists or armor+ap or armor+hot with +15% healing. What makes kotbs a backbone of any group is amplification of sustainability with that +15% stacking heal boost. Chosen is a bit more flexiable its not shoehorned into 4 aura preset but priorities are not stats, ihd>ap>resists>build up increase>hot>toughness>str.

4. Willpower
This is a very incorrect and far-fetched statement. Nothing is limiting you to buff your healer and swap Dark Protector according to your needs. Any decent IB/BG swaps it all around according to what encounter requires.

5. Crimson death
Gigantic strawman. Its not too high on tree, its where it needs to be to balance out other goodies BG has so you are not able to spec both for the witch king and crimson death as 2h. Kotbs is in a same way shoehorned into mandatory specs that are just way more effecient then rest of "options" it has. Kotbs just as BG brings such great utility that it suboptimal to spec anything else. There is no difference. BG speccing Crimson Death is not loosing of his rest goodies.
I know you cant debate or argue (nor there are any kind of proper, sane arguments to be discussed overally on this matter) but like i can also play this special olympics for stupidity and say - but what about furious howl huh?! why is it not 13 mastery points like kotbs staggering point?!

6. CDR
Huh, i missed out some changes that block CDR usage if you are not in an active discord voice channel. It "works" for spiking regular sustain AoE dmg on sorc/msh and supports raid healing of shaman. Just as any other ability in game its usage become way more effective the more organised you are. Thats true for anything and definitely not a reason of why BG is worst tank lol

7. Damage
Last i check any kind of regular or ranked scens BG has been doing just mighty fine. Its offensiveness comes with its gear/rr setups which is true for all other tanks and goes in conflict with its defensiveness which is also true for each and every tank. There is abosulutely nothing special with its damage. Niche roles for tanks in terms of dmg are:
sm - highest consistent
ib - highest burst
bo - highest outliers with crits
bg - highest sustained
chosen/kotbs - jack of all trades, master of none

8. Punt
Great job spreading myths, as if its not enough of them in /ad. While now everything is unified on all tanks, BG punt even despite its Z-axis has highest time of guard disconnecting of all other tanks. Drawbacks have to exists or else its just mathematically way too overpowered. Draw back is Z-axis and fast flytime (same as of other tanks). All tanks disconnect guard for 5 seconds while at 1,5 second mark flying target (tank for example) is still within guard range, while only BG disconnects for 8 seconds due to it having more "Power" flag (950 vs 800 for rest) in database. At least for target flytime is unified, would be way too op if it wouldnt. Also FYI, all punts are 65ft, BG punt is 110ft (last i tested). Go figure lol

So to OP:
So, yeah, its very important to specify your question or else you will get alot of random clueless spam, emotions, strong opinions that have nothing to do with actual data etc. Instead its more efficient to spend time, think and formulate what do you want to know exactly or share details of your plan so forum dwellers can give some advice or critique.

[eigner93]

8. Punt
Great job spreading myths, as if its not enough of them in /ad. While now everything is unified on all tanks, BG punt even despite its Z-axis has highest time of guard disconnecting of all other tanks. Drawbacks have to exists or else its just mathematically way too overpowered. Draw back is Z-axis and fast flytime (same as of other tanks). All tanks disconnect guard for 5 seconds while at 1,5 second mark flying target (tank for example) is still within guard range, while only BG disconnects for 8 seconds due to it having more "Power" flag (950 vs 800 for rest) in database. At least for target flytime is unified, would be way too op if it wouldnt. Also FYI, all punts are 65ft, BG punt is 110ft (last i tested). Go figure lol

God every time i face a bloody BG they punt me to outer space with the speed of light.

[buerdig]

BG get a bad reputation because they are considered the hardest to play, weakest of the 3 the destro tanks. The problem is taking the meaning of being "weakest" of what are all strong tanks and instead saying they are just weak in general.

BG still have a faster punt CD than the other two without having to tactic i believe. Yes, BG isn't as favorable as BOs and Chosen at the moment cause they didn't benefit from any of recent changes but to say worthless? I would argue against that. Alot of BGs who were long time players of the class are upset and I can understand why but I can only talk about this past year so I have a little more optimism.

SnB BG is extremely resilient and is a lot of fun. Hatered does make BG slower to the race than the other tanks but once the fight starts, I've never had an issue maintaining it after 5 seconds. Your DP target isn't limited to your group and does not work on a GCD but what is tricky is being aware of both your guard and where your DP is.

Which goes back into the main point of this thread, what purpose do BGs serve? Well, for one like someone said, you are a still a tank, a good tank is always of value. Furious howl while engaging the front is a great debuff, 2 interrupts from taunt and crushing anger(no spec) a 20% reduce critical chance on a BW or dps, FtWK ofc is what we are known for but also imo the tactics BG get for essentially free block/parry is huge when it comes to being a good guard.

[Alubert]

Snb BG is not a popular tank.
It could get something interesting before the dps balance patch.

But it can still fulfill its function, and I will say more, it does some things better than other tanks.

The best punt in the game. You don't use a tactic slot that other tanks have to sacrifice outside of IB.

5 sec KD requires hate and you can't use it when, for example, you're chasing an enemy who isn't attacking at the time. But used well, it can guarantee a kill.

Very easy hate build-up mechanics compared to IB. You don't have to set up hate tactics. The 2h build is obviously much better because you have channel and crit and you're sitting on full hate all the time. It takes more time on snb, but it's quite acceptable.
Unfortunately, you don't have the points to buy Enraged Beating to build hate faster.

Much easier to use than IB. You rely on debuffs rather than buffs like IB. It's very enjoyable to play.
Because your utility is based on skills and you don't have to slot PUNT tactics like other tanks, you have a lot of free slots and can use tactics that suit you, which is impossible on other tanks.

Aoe avoid debuff.
Aoe snare (great soft cc)

FTWK is perfect in some situations (aoe cleanse, sever blessing, shatter enchantment or st/aoe channels)

Outgoing HD

And most importantly, as snb BG, you look the best of all tanks

The first thing that comes to mind to gently help BG is that I would like there to be a tactic that would increase the range of DP/OF (IB too).