[Suggestion] Strikethrough

[Fenris78]

Dodge and disrupt are already too weak as defensive stat compared to parry, you can easily stack 50+ parry as mdps, while dodge and disrupt are at best 20-25% for 4 DD levels.

So in the end you'll often stay like 35-40% parry, while any caster with maxed stat will hit you 90% of the time without needed strikethrough investment.
I'm not even talking about tactics and spells that are undefendable.

If anything, that's the dodge and disrupt bonuses which has to be increased, and parry decreased.
Like make renown give more for Deft Defender, less for Reflexes.
Tone down defensive stats on gear, as well as Strikethrough bonuses to shorten the gap between stuff.
A 6% reduced chance to be disrupt/dodge is worth more than 6% reduced chance to be parried, for instance, because average respective defensive values are clearly not on the same level.

Indeed, you can bypass Parry entirely striking from back, but on pretty much every scenario casters and ranged got the upper hand, because letting 10% defense on your target is not the same as 25% when you're a melee DPS.

TLDR :
- Base avoidances should be higher (at least ranged ones)
- Renown should give less bonuses to avoidances
- Stuff should give less strikethrough to ranged
- Strikethrough should not be capped to -50% avoidances max
- Stuff and tactics should give less parry bonuses for mdps.

[leftayparxoun]

I will have to disagree with the proposal to remove the strikethrough 50% of avoidance cap. At least not without major changes to either itemization, abillities and tactics, or to the avoidance system itself.

Let me elaborate:

Back in August 2024 when the previous iteration of the WS/INI avoidance system change was proposed, I was quite vocal about the issues that would cause. That same iteration of the avoidance system (that you are proposing we should go back to) was introduced without changes from the then announced PTS patchnotes and lasted exactly 2 months before the current system with the 50% strikethrough cap was implemented.

Despite my post focusing mainly on Parry%, a purely linear system can be, and is in my opinion, problematic for any type of avoidance.
To explain why briefly, I will just mention some representative base values of avoidances and strikethrough with the current system (ignoring caps):

• Healers: 2% strikethrough, 10% parry, 12% dodge, 27% disrupt

• dual wield mdps: 13% strikethrough, 17% parry, 7% dodge, 5% disrupt

• 2handed mdps: 23% strikethrough, 7% parry, 7% dodge, 5% disrupt

• Mage/Ranger: 18% strikethrough, 7% parry, 7% dodge, 5% disrupt

• SnB tanks: 5% strikethrough, 40% block, 30% parry, 15% dodge, 11% disrupt

• 2h tanks: 17% strikethrough, 50% parry, 20% dodge, 11% disrupt

Before any of those classes decide how to allocate their RR points we see in advance that:

• 2handed dps pretty much would invalidate any Parry% from RR if they are hitting a Healer, 2h dps, Mage or Ranger

• Mages and Rangers pretty much would invalidate any Dodge/Disrupt% from RR if they are hitting any dps (unless they are under the effects of Hold the Line)

All other archetypes would have small to medium chances to have their attacks avoided by other targets.

And at this point one should wonder: "Is that fair?"
Or to put it more succinctly: "Does class/overall balance take it into account?"

The fact that that system was changed only 2 months later seems to imply that balance does indeed take it into account, and our current system was the most elegant, at that point, way to adjust balance with minimal changes.


At this point I believe that a linear avoidance system baseline is here to stay.
We've seem similar attempts from our balance team to simplify and standardize game mechanics so that they are easily understandable by the average player. Examples of that include the Snare standardization from January 2024, the AOE channel hit frequency standardization from June 2024, the Potion and Lini stacking changes from July 2025, the Damage Reducing Ability stacking and Buff/Debuff standardization changes from September 2025 and of course the linearization of the avoidance system itself.

Overall I'm in agreement with this line of thinking since it makes the game understandable to players and makes computations easier.
The balance team's comments hint at balancing being done on an individual/class level above those changes to reach the desired balance state
e.g.



So with that in mind, if the linear system is here to stay, what could be done in order to remove the 50% strikethrough cap while not invalidating certain classes from building certain avoidances? And I state that as a goal because 1) it makes sense within the realism of the game, and 2) that's how nearly every single previous avoidance system has worked.

1) Realism:
By realism I refer to the mechanics of avoidance themselves. Block being tied to shields makes sense. Parry being possible to all classes (wielding weapons) makes sense. Dodging an arrow by anyone makes sense. Disrupting a spell, while more abstract, also makes sense withing the Warhammer Fantasy universe due to how fickle spells are in general.
So when I mention it "making sense" I'm referring to there always being a possibility to dodge an arrow; no sniper/archer can always be 100% accurate. Even a healer can get lucky parry a frontal attack with their staff. Even a shield healer with a flimsy shield should be able to block some frontal hits. Realism.
Many people might not agree with this arguement but I thought it was important to mention it.

2) Past avoidance systems:
Thanks to Rydiak's research in the topic, we have documentation on all previous avoidance systems listed in his RoR Calculator's "Avoidance Calculator" tab. As you can see, every single avoidance system besides the Original Mythic system (which was changed sometime during Live) and our previous ROR 2024 system (before the strikethrough cap change) would always result in some relatively small chance to avoid an attack. Certain systems made avoidance RR investment stronger and some weaker, but in every scenario there was the possibility to avoid an attack.


So, if the goal is to have a simplified (a.k.a. linear) avoidance-strikethrough system that also always results in some chance to avoid attacks this can only be achieved by setting a strikethrough cap (or equivalently some sort of a minimum avoidance limit).

If we are abandoning the 50% strikethrough cap, the limits below which an avoidance cannot be lowered could be arbitrary (e.g. minimum 10% parry for mdps, 5% for rdps and healers, 30% parry for tanks) but that would defeat the purpose of the system. In essence it would lead to people having to look up/memorize different numbers for different classes and different avoidances which is pretty much what both the original 2024 system and the 50% strikethrough cap change tried to avoid.

I think the most elegant solution would be to either:

• a) Integrate avoidance debuffs in the toolkits of classes/specs that are reliant on not being avoided.
  Example of such a debuff can be found in dps Shaman's Da Waaagh! Is Coming.
  
  Similar effects could potentially be added in e.g. ST mage specs like in BW's "Fuel To The Fire" tactic. This is already in place for Magus and Engi via Withered Soul and Singal Flare. Perhaps boosting those avoidance debuffs and adding new ones in the classes that are missing one could be a way forward.
  Alternatively, the balance team could

• b) Make individual adjustments to either the strikethrough cap or to the avoidance scalings.
  As an example, if the main issue is healers disrupting nearly every 3rd spell cast on them, it could be possible to bring the strikethrough cap to e.g. 25% instead of 50% just for disrupt or perhaps to make Disrupt scale differently with Willpower (e.g. 1.5% Disrupt chance per 100 WP instead of 3%). After all Block is already scaling differently at 0.5% per 100 Toughness).

These are my thoughts and suggestions on the topic.
I do think that the previous Avoidance system was quite flawed in many ways and I do prefer the current one (although it is still not without its issues). However, I still have hope that the balance team will make some changes to fix the most egregious problems by the end of the DPS balance phase.

[PROsiak]

Dodge and disrupt are already too weak as defensive stat compared to parry, you can easily stack 50+ parry as mdps, while dodge and disrupt are at best 20-25% for 4 DD levels.

So in the end you'll often stay like 35-40% parry, while any caster with maxed stat will hit you 90% of the time without needed strikethrough investment.
I'm not even talking about tactics and spells that are undefendable.

Just my 2 cents, i highly suggest first playing actual caster class like sorc/bw/sham/am before making such claims.
You'd be amazed how often disrupts happen and how detrimental that is to overall performance of a class.

[Stinksuit]

Strikethrough was a stat very scarcely used on live and for a good reason. When you invest in a defensive stat, it's very annoying to see it negated by strikethrough and all the skills that currently can ignore/lower defences (there are already too many of these). I mean, a tank is supposed to be tanky. A dps/healer who sacrifices offensive/healing stats for defences should also have the full benefit of it.

If you add even more ways to ignore/lower defences you will just widen the gap even more between BiS and the rest of the players, who are already herded cattle in most of the game. Only BiS players can be deemed too tanky (and most of the time within the context of a full BiS group).

I don't want to see War turn even more into a "modern" quick paced action RPG with everyone falling within a few seconds with no counter play, the TTK is already ridiculously low for anyone not BiS these days.

While I get this point

"When you invest in a defensive stat, it's very annoying to see it negated by strikethrough and all the skills that currently can ignore/lower defences"

But also at the sametime its a bit annoying to invest into offensive stat only to receive half the value.

I feel like you could use similar arguments for armor pen aswell. Why shouldn't we cap armor pen at 50% bypass aswell if people need to invest into higher armor?

[Ruin]

what about giving 2h staff 10% strike threw, just like 2h weapons gets?

[Alubert]

what about giving 2h staff 10% strike threw, just like 2h weapons gets?

nice idea