WE - against WHs

[Martok]

Wow, so you play with SnB? No problems than, tanks must be tanky! Oh, wait, you play with 2h, right? So you are not a tank anymore...

I wish I had a dollar for every time someone has made this comment over the years. I could buy a Black Lotus.

[sharpblader]

"You all, folks, have access to killboard and can easily look up things. All your wild claims are very easily checkable."

This.

Goes for everyone on this post.

Want to see how to fight against a certain class? Follow the steps nocturnal mentioned. Do check which abilities contribute to most of the damage to know which builds are effective. Also don't hesitate to ping those guys in game. Most solo roamers are friendly (shocking right?) and would love to share tips if asked nicely.

Putting in a bit of effort to research can really up your ability to deal with impossible classes.

I can respect wanting to play in a certain way, but understand that it is also equivalent to rock wanting to stay the same to kill scissors but upset that it can't kill paper.

1v1 in this game is like rock paper scissors, but the beauty of it is that tweaking your build depending on your matchup can blur the lines. Rest is gear, skill and luck.

[Farrul]

Oh, really nice one, very lore friendly

I dont personally really care about class ''lore'' that much but the general flow and logic of a class in terms of how it is expected to behave according to her role on the battlefield, e.g if a tank/tanky character suddenly gains Stealth it would feel very awkward to me. A tank is not supposed to stealth around and have the element of surprise. These toons are squishy but deadly and agile in most games, which makes sense.

But if that's her lore, let her become a brawler class then without the sneaking around! . Although i think many that plays WE right now, does it for the kind of assassin 'drow'' theme.

4. How to check it - type the name of any def WE that is BiS and comes to your mind (ideally few names) in killboard, switch "solo kills only", pick their deaths, scroll down and see the freud (take into account solo kills only, look up map position, check damage done (if its 300 dmg and the spot of the kill is in some weird place like lava or something discard such kill, literally discard any strange record kill) and then also check person who's got heal to figure if it could potentially get an outside heal or not (in most cases the answer is no)).

P.S. I can totally get people who are pointing out very obvious design flows of WE being bruiser tank instead of stealth assasin, but sadly thats not how one should balance things around. And AoR/RoR is way off the lore and have always been, so those are not actual arguments folks.

A lot of WE's on the server aren't good players so it wouldn't surprise me if that data is correct, they're using an overtuned spec but dies to silly player mistakes like anyone else, they do not know when to disengage or when to stun/ do a rotation etc, nor how to counter stuff like M3 SM etc. The danger is when you have a player that knows what it is doing, then it becomes a class imbalance if the class has too much going for it( which is still the case with her, too many advantageous tools for that level of tankiness in a 1vs1 or 1vsx situation).

They are beatable, especially when the other player outskills them or is playing a class which is more simple to understand and execute with. But there is still an advantage to playing them which doesn't make any sense. Hence my issue with them is more out of a principle. I could still defeat them if im forced to, but i rather have a situation where the WE is like the WH is for destro players, more about tricks than being a tank.

I will add though that there was 1 or 2 WE'S in the bunch that my SM(before the nerfs with a 360 lini, fully wrath of hoeth 370) just could not defeat, not due to build or skill( i still believe myself to be a fairly more skilled player than these we's and i haven't seen another SM on this server quite perform on my level yet, ) but due to the fact that their hp/gain/reset was too much to overcome.

The way i would like a WE to defeat me, is through her powerful singletarget damage and tricky nature, not by brawling like a Chosen in your face that when losing, can just stagger you for 6 seconds and back into stealth mod, there is something fundamentally wrong with that.

That doesn't feel alright when WE has the element of surprise, i.e can pick fights.

I also know for a fact that there are some WE's player themselves that despise the Def build, out of the reasons i've mentioned. I think the whole situation is easily solved by improving her other tree's DPS build and rework the middle tree into something that makes more sense.

[Farrul]

We also had no dmg cap on Morals, both realms had 50% aoe heal debuffs on dps healers btw. it was much wider range of specs&buffs/debuffs available to all. Wh/We didnt have Charge and they didnt need it, still dont and shouldnt have it or we can start handing out stealth abilities to other classes if we do that or we/wh will be only classes with all of the thing(people crying about no charge on class, Odjira Fixes this and available to all)

Hmm without a charge imho at least the WH would suck and any WE which isn't def. Since there are too many nasty kiters in the game and the ''slow'' is not really working reliable vs a player that may abuse its mechanics by turning at the right moment.

I would increase their charge to a 3 Min CD so that it can't be spammed as much, in return i would like their ''Stealth'' ability to last longer, imho it fades too quick since they nerfed it which isn't fun from their point of view ( having a WH myself, it really sucks tbh). Just return the stealth to the previous ''drain'' values.

But for this to happen of course a ''DEF WE'' just can't exist.

P.S. gap-closers are needed for melee characters, i don't wish to be reminded about the debacle which is the wrath warrior priest not havinga gap closer, or to a lesser extent the dok dps. It is just really not accceptable with all kiters in the game.

[nocturnalguest]

I can respect wanting to play in a certain way, but understand that it is also equivalent to rock wanting to stay the same to kill scissors but upset that it can't kill paper.

1v1 in this game is like rock paper scissors, but the beauty of it is that tweaking your build depending on your matchup can blur the lines. Rest is gear, skill and luck.

Thats very valuable addition, thanks. I actually forgot to mention this very important thing, none if choose to play solo roaming game mode can ignore or discard this very truth. RPS design dictates some of the flows that people rant about so one needs to adjust its build/gameplay to have higher chances to succed. Point.

Spoiler:

Oh, really nice one, very lore friendly

I dont personally really care about class ''lore'' that much but the general flow and logic of a class in terms of how it is expected to behave according to her role on the battlefield, e.g if a tank/tanky character suddenly gains Stealth it would feel very awkward to me. A tank is not supposed to stealth around and have the element of surprise. These toons are squishy but deadly and agile in most games, which makes sense.

But if that's her lore, let her become a brawler class then without the sneaking around! . Although i think many that plays WE right now, does it for the kind of assassin 'drow'' theme.

4. How to check it - type the name of any def WE that is BiS and comes to your mind (ideally few names) in killboard, switch "solo kills only", pick their deaths, scroll down and see the freud (take into account solo kills only, look up map position, check damage done (if its 300 dmg and the spot of the kill is in some weird place like lava or something discard such kill, literally discard any strange record kill) and then also check person who's got heal to figure if it could potentially get an outside heal or not (in most cases the answer is no)).

P.S. I can totally get people who are pointing out very obvious design flows of WE being bruiser tank instead of stealth assasin, but sadly thats not how one should balance things around. And AoR/RoR is way off the lore and have always been, so those are not actual arguments folks.

A lot of WE's on the server aren't good players so it wouldn't surprise me if that data is correct, they're using an overtuned spec but dies to silly player mistakes like anyone else, they do not know when to disengage or when to stun/ do a rotation etc, nor how to counter stuff like M3 SM etc. The danger is when you have a player that knows what it is doing, then it becomes a class imbalance if the class has too much going for it( which is still the case with her, too many advantageous tools for that level of tankiness in a 1vs1 or 1vsx situation).

They are beatable, especially when the other player outskills them or is playing a class which is more simple to understand and execute with. But there is still an advantage to playing them which doesn't make any sense. Hence my issue with them is more out of a principle. I could still defeat them if im forced to, but i rather have a situation where the WE is like the WH is for destro players, more about tricks than being a tank.

I will add though that there was 1 or 2 WE'S in the bunch that my SM(before the nerfs with a 360 lini, fully wrath of hoeth 370) just could not defeat, not due to build or skill( i still believe myself to be a fairly more skilled player than these we's and i haven't seen another SM on this server quite perform on my level yet, ) but due to the fact that their hp/gain/reset was too much to overcome.

The way i would like a WE to defeat me, is through her powerful singletarget damage and tricky nature, not by brawling like a Chosen in your face that when losing, can just stagger you for 6 seconds and back into stealth mod, there is something fundamentally wrong with that.

That doesn't feel alright when WE has the element of surprise, i.e can pick fights.

I also know for a fact that there are some WE's player themselves that despise the Def build, out of the reasons i've mentioned. I think the whole situation is easily solved by improving her other tree's DPS build and rework the middle tree into something that makes more sense.

Oh, man, look, that wasnt anyhow a jab and definitely not aimed at you specifically. I actually agree with what you say, i dont deny that there is a design flow with WE and there is a space for adjustments and it could use overhaul and pick other identity.
However few notes:
1. I got what you saying but i cant fully agree that its all only about build, i dont disagree with a statement that some players are being carried by such build to an extent, nor i can deny that toptier players benefit from such build (but thats true for literally anything else as well, any class, any spec etc).
2. When i did check up what beats WE i picked 3 WEs that are above 85rr, currently play and play often. Information i mention is a generalization of such search. I assume those are toptier skilled solo roamers. And they die to what i mention. Pretty often actually. However those WEs dont do any really serious competetive play, they havent been seen in 6v6, nor they run high competetive large scale, this for me means those are not best players and those that are best players on WE that i know how skilled they are dont play solo roam. Because solo roaming in my pov goes 3rd in complexity (in my pov 1st place goes for 6v6, 2nd to 24v24 in empty zone which is atm not existant, so can place solo roam at 2nd place actually at least currently ) to other game modes so i dont quite get your statements about players skills, i believe i picked those "1 or 2" that you mention (if really interested i can DM you which ones).
3. Emotionally i agree with you fully on the part where you describe how WE should beat stuff. But i cant imagine what class tweaks would be, it will have to lose current identity and its a Zugzwang, either group players will not like it or solo roamers. I understand you cant please everyone but in group play WE is more or less fine (not so meta as it used to be, but still ok pick).

[siglade]

Mid tree is fine.

@op
Matchup is 50/50, can go either way.

[Avanos]

Hey guys,

How do you fight WHs and what's the most difficult part in fighting against WHs?

What spec do you run as a WE?
Feel free to PM me on discord.

[Kylashandra]

First, the regen spec is a whole separate issue, it's not about a class, it's about the concept of regen items on WAR, something that didnt exist on live and was added for some reason on RoR. Regen items are just some kind of "f*** you ! roamers" message hidden in the current game, because it dilutes any kind of skill into a simple stat check : are you able to beat the regen (y/n). No skillfull use of AP drain, debuffs, positionals will change a thing as long as Regen builds stuff exists. The fact that it favors the classes who can kill regardless of their main stat (those who have a passive way of doing damage, like Witchbrew, Oathstone, Napalm, even with low/no main stat investment...) while staying alive thanks to regen and a defensive build is quite obvious and is not only a WE issue.

The the main question, why would WE prefer regen in solo settings?
First, who are the main roamers that a WE will mostly face ?
- WHs > a non regen WE always struggle vs WHs and their 100% parry available at engage, their ability to range kite/dot while WE has to stay in melee range.
- WLs > again, a very hard matchup vs a pet class with many CCs and an ability to kite (and a non positional burst capacity that is superior to what an offensive spec WE can output).
- DPS AMs > well i guess in both regen and off spec a WE will avoid this fight.
- Roamer tanks > an offensive WE doesnt have the armor debuff capacity of a WL/Mara and doesnt have any reliable way to ignore defenses. So it will always be a long fight which only a regen WE can sustain.
- Engis > again a bad matchup for WE, although an offensive WE may fare better than a regen one in that case. Engi will basically outregen a regen WE ^^...

So we see WE has mostly bad matchups in non regen spec in the current state of its offensive spec.

[Faction69]

Hence it shouldn't be a thing to begin with, if WE wants to behave like a marauder brawler class, it needs to lose Stealth, stagger etc and could gain AOE attacks instead.

Oh, really nice one, very lore friendly

Also @coldhunter "devs" you refer to have nothing to do with balancing and itemization FYI, sweet summer child. Balance is one group, PvE building is another group, itemization was done by another group with consultations in inner circle of players. So DPS rework may surprise you.

Can i please also add into derailing of this thread?
1. I dont quite get how mature persons can be this childish seeing things only black&white?
2. You all, folks, have access to killboard and can easily look up things. All your wild claims are very easily checkable.
3. No, def WE is not winning everything by default. In current scheme (and its easy to check) it almost certainly loses to:
- solo roaming dps healers, and actually all of them AM/RP+2h WP (almost without any chance), those kill it doing ~9-20k dmg (AM needs not more then 9k, RP ~13-15, and WP may even go up to 25k);
- properly prepared tanks (chosen, sm, kotbs (current version), snb ib etc), they kinda have to do 25-30k dmg into it tho;
- good rSW or engi, they kill it with not more then 8-9k dmg done.
WH and lions are purely statistically 50/50, WH is obvious and for lions i havent done in depth analyze but i suspect its spec related.
4. How to check it - type the name of any def WE that is BiS and comes to your mind (ideally few names) in killboard, switch "solo kills only", pick their deaths, scroll down and see the freud (take into account solo kills only, look up map position, check damage done (if its 300 dmg and the spot of the kill is in some weird place like lava or something discard such kill, literally discard any strange record kill) and then also check person who's got heal to figure if it could potentially get an outside heal or not (in most cases the answer is no)).

P.S. I can totally get people who are pointing out very obvious design flows of WE being bruiser tank instead of stealth assasin, but sadly thats not how one should balance things around. And AoR/RoR is way off the lore and have always been, so those are not actual arguments folks.

None of this is true though especially engi, sw etc... They have a slow proc weapon so neither class can kite them. Pots alone add 6k+ hp, who is dying to just 9k damage? That's their base hp with def gear, without a single regen tick, without a single heal or shield proc.
Any DPS WE getting solo killed with any regularity is not playing well especially to a total of 9k damage.

[nocturnalguest]

None of this is true though especially engi, sw etc... They have a slow proc weapon so neither class can kite them. Pots alone add 6k+ hp, who is dying to just 9k damage? That's their base hp with def gear, without a single regen tick, without a single heal or shield proc.
Any DPS WE getting solo killed with any regularity is not playing well especially to a total of 9k damage.

Oh really? And how did you figure? Your assumptions, feelings and emotions? Yeah good stuff, especially as long as we have killboard...
As you obviously seem to lack experience and knowledge, ill be so kind to share abit of examples that i did within few minutes (and didnt even bother to pick proper ones as there are tons of info and tons of defWE deaths), there you go

















I dont show it all publicly as >80-90% of solo roamers are having very fragile ego so i dont wanna turn forums into sh**storm fiesta with names.

As ive said. I pick 3 currently active WE, they wear grim chest and 2 fleshrenders and they are above 85rr, i also double check with 2 other of 80rr who play actively. All those 5 do is solo roam all day long. I then as i mention pick their fights, look at them, check out their feuds and stuff and post what i post.

Because unlike you, i use arguments then i talk publicly and dont post cr*p. So if i were you i'd first ask to DM things to make conclusions and then do the counterarguments.
If in your world defWE wins everything by default, then its your skill issues.

So quick tl;dr - if opponent is not room temperature iq then defWE easily dies to dps healers, tanks and rdps. important note - i didnt check WLs, someone could do that analyzing their builds and stuff, i suspect WL also kills it no problem then speced properly.

P.S. also dont even start for your own dignity telling me that i cherrypick (there are examples of 8-9k deaths from rdps with positive solo feuds vs defWE, cba to look up again), just do the job yourself before sh*ttalking and look into killboard yourself. ive wrote already noobguide to do that. Also dont ask me to DM info to you now, as you discredited yourself.