BW/sorc buff when?

[wonshot]

The class identity of the class mechanic and the playstyle of these classes are close to impossible to land correctly due to the nature of how it functions.
A fresh new player not understanding what hit them, how to prevent it, or how to react to it during the build up will absolutely feel this is anti-fun and feel shocked by the "one shot" timestamp.

In a more organized setting and balanced fight, there are multiple ways to shotting down the damage such as
- clensing
- interrupting the hardcasts to get the timestamp total burst out of sync
- absorbs
- mitigation layers such as detaunt, gaurd, Bellow, Clallenge
- prevention such as breaking range, Line of Sight, or counter ccing.

The issue and the hard part of balancing these classes is how it is the only options for playing the classes to play the backloaded burst focused around Crits.
You dont have an alternative to go, lets call it Arcane Blast spamming from WoW. Where you stand in the back and unload one Hard-casted spell after the other. The classes kinda suck at this aspect (I tried making a Casttime build around items + CQ and spamming undefendable fireballs, it sucked).
There also isnt an alternative build to stand in the back and having channeled immobile ranged abilities which are ramping up at the cost of you standing still and them becoming more potent, the current channels are mostly used for the first tick of the Channel to add into the Timestamp.

Sorc & BW doesnt have alternatives to stacking Int, these classes have been 1050 softcapped on int since Conq era. With no other secondary offensive stat (like melee have WS) and theres no alternative to the class mechanic Critchance + Critdmg. There is not Renown point Strikethrough option to go into (there was breifly around 2018 when Dots could get disrupted on each time). So when the latest indirect nerf hit to strikethrough, your 1050 int from Conq Era still stayed the same, mixed with the Hold the Line logic-changes few years back you are now facing even more disrupt chances than ever and you have less tools or chances to bypass it.

Singletarget builds also took an indirect nerf to the proc-tactics for the owner, as a result of return of the proc meta after the ability database changes. Instead of fixing the proc meta which was resolved ish in 2018-2019 these new nerfs hit the proc tactics and affected ST specs for the meta of the aoe specs (used to be 75% proc chance for self, now its down to 40%)

Out of nowhere endgame BiS casters were too potent, despite the latest gear powerspike or patchnote buffing the singletarget timestamp in 2024. So the classmechanic that has been the very same since AoR live about ten years ago, needed to be toned down despite casters still running around in the same Sove gear. Instead of addressing the BiS gear powerspike if that was the issue, the whole class mechanic was the target affecting all casters from lvl 1 to RR80.

What these classes probably need, is to get alternative ways to build outside of only the timestamp and the critchance.
Alternative playstyles like backline hardcasting, or ramping Challened dps that goes up while you stand still offering counterplay more easily or something like that.
Because the way these ST timestamps will always end up, is that it will be either be too weak where the timestamp isnt leathal or too overpowered if its too strong in an organized setting. But trying to land in the golden middle where the performance against pugs -and premades will always make it over-under-tuned in one bracket or the other too often. And the attempts are mostly a result of indirect adjustment, or seeing years of waiting time between each direct patch on these classes.

[Mishas]

The class identity of the class mechanic and the playstyle of these classes are close to impossible to land correctly due to the nature of how it functions.
A fresh new player not understanding what hit them, how to prevent it, or how to react to it during the build up will absolutely feel this is anti-fun and feel shocked by the "one shot" timestamp.

In a more organized setting and balanced fight, there are multiple ways to shotting down the damage such as
- clensing
- interrupting the hardcasts to get the timestamp total burst out of sync
- absorbs
- mitigation layers such as detaunt, gaurd, Bellow, Clallenge
- prevention such as breaking range, Line of Sight, or counter ccing.

The issue and the hard part of balancing these classes is how it is the only options for playing the classes to play the backloaded burst focused around Crits.
You dont have an alternative to go, lets call it Arcane Blast spamming from WoW. Where you stand in the back and unload one Hard-casted spell after the other. The classes kinda suck at this aspect (I tried making a Casttime build around items + CQ and spamming undefendable fireballs, it sucked).
There also isnt an alternative build to stand in the back and having channeled immobile ranged abilities which are ramping up at the cost of you standing still and them becoming more potent, the current channels are mostly used for the first tick of the Channel to add into the Timestamp.

Sorc & BW doesnt have alternatives to stacking Int, these classes have been 1050 softcapped on int since Conq era. With no other secondary offensive stat (like melee have WS) and theres no alternative to the class mechanic Critchance + Critdmg. There is not Renown point Strikethrough option to go into (there was breifly around 2018 when Dots could get disrupted on each time). So when the latest indirect nerf hit to strikethrough, your 1050 int from Conq Era still stayed the same, mixed with the Hold the Line logic-changes few years back you are now facing even more disrupt chances than ever and you have less tools or chances to bypass it.

Singletarget builds also took an indirect nerf to the proc-tactics for the owner, as a result of return of the proc meta after the ability database changes. Instead of fixing the proc meta which was resolved ish in 2018-2019 these new nerfs hit the proc tactics and affected ST specs for the meta of the aoe specs (used to be 75% proc chance for self, now its down to 40%)

Out of nowhere endgame BiS casters were too potent, despite the latest gear powerspike or patchnote buffing the singletarget timestamp in 2024. So the classmechanic that has been the very same since AoR live about ten years ago, needed to be toned down despite casters still running around in the same Sove gear. Instead of addressing the BiS gear powerspike if that was the issue, the whole class mechanic was the target affecting all casters from lvl 1 to RR80.

What these classes probably need, is to get alternative ways to build outside of only the timestamp and the critchance.
Alternative playstyles like backline hardcasting, or ramping Challened dps that goes up while you stand still offering counterplay more easily or something like that.
Because the way these ST timestamps will always end up, is that it will be either be too weak where the timestamp isnt leathal or too overpowered if its too strong in an organized setting. But trying to land in the golden middle where the performance against pugs -and premades will always make it over-under-tuned in one bracket or the other too often. And the attempts are mostly a result of indirect adjustment, or seeing years of waiting time between each direct patch on these classes.

I do not really think that other dps classes have a "different way of building" gearwise in terms of dps. WS is used because when calculating how to maximize damage it turns that WS gives more than STR for certain abilities but that is it. Magic dps just have it simpler than physical ones since they do not have to care about making the comparisong between WS and STR.

Now, regarding skills, I also think that most of the classes are in a similar spot. Many if not all have 1-2 viable playstyles (often ST vs AoE builds). However, I do agree that all classes should have their "useless" skills reworked. That alone might give some of the "fresh air" feeling that I understand you are looking for your class.

[Yaliskah]

And let’s not forget: BACKLASH DAMAGE is still in the game. Almost every other class can be somewhat tanky, or leech, or regen HP while dishing out damage. BW/Sorc? They pay 750 HP per cast. So every attempt at a rotation? That’s 2250–3000 HP down the drain before anything even lands.

I totally agree this. In the past, backlash was a way to tone down the insane amount of damage dealed with those 2 classes. Now with -auto- cleans and high disrupt level, even if sorc/BW make a glass canon build, they hurt themself at least as much as damage they deal. In the end of the day, some DPS-healer classes seems to be more reliable than those 2 classes (i don't understand hybrid classes, because it has a reductive aspect for "single" archetypes).

[Magusar]

Have all classes in game +40. All pure dps +80 exept WE, all of them in BiS (exept Magus and eng dont have triumph rings), including some bis dps hybrids (dps DOK and WP).
Well, the bw/sorc my the worst toons. I don't know how it possible that a group and very risky archetype doesn't work in more than 50% of the group content in the game and in the part of the game where it is still used it is valuable, first of all, as a "supports" and to be a range champion at stage 3.

[Magusar]

I was quite surprised from the mechanic nerf that both classes got. It was so uncalled, just straight dmg nerf without bw/sorcs were op or even top dps at whatever level

"RP, buff, 15%, dps, BW. Sorc,for, the company, nerf."
Make 2 sentences from the words provided.

[Magusar]

What sorc/bw nerfed the most was the strikethrough change tbh
GL not getting disrupted vs a healer nowdays

Absolutly true, I would add here "ups of everything in a row, including enemies who were already a thorn in the side since the live, ups of those to whom you were a natural enemy, and now you are, excuse me, a laughing stock for them, buffs of allies who have ousted you.". And ofc, gcd change.

[Magusar]

No idea about the general need for buffs, but the comments on disrupt are interesting as I can't say I've really noticed it being an issue when playing healers and using offensive abilities with <300 int and 0 strikethrough. Being weak(er) against healers was also always the case on AoR, by design, with BW/sorc's primary targets being mdps/rdps/2h tanks. Whereas healers were more vulnerable to mdps and phys dmg (dodge-based) rdps. Well unless you're a WP/DoK of course.

There were no disrupts without specific conditions like HTL, cauldron/magnus by wh/we, sl's m1 untouchable in AoR. If someone had a disrupt rate withou those conditions, this meant that A - you pumped up def defender instead of crit chance and TB, which in turn meant that you would not be able to heal/damage normally (low crit chance), and that you would be ground to dust by the first sane damage dealer +90 for 1-3 GCD due to the proc on power and the amount of crit on DPS sets +90 - 100 level (no TB). B - you taly will power instead something usefull, which meant your imminent death from physical DPS.

[saupreusse]

My two cents: i neither play bw nor sorc, but i feel like they've lost a lot of their burst potential. So much that In RvR i would consider them a smaller threat than Squigs, SW or even Dps Healers.

[Bozzax]

Correct

- Sorc / BW is also more locked in by spec/tactics then other dps to either ST or AOE. Unlike others they just don’t loose efficiency the become gimp/broken

- A cleansing group fully negates a BW/Sorc and this is laughable now with horrible more disrupting

- very few classes are equally starved by long CDs / and long casts again made worse by high disruption relative live

[Magusar]

The class identity of the class mechanic and the playstyle of these classes are close to impossible to land correctly due to the nature of how it functions.
A fresh new player not understanding what hit them, how to prevent it, or how to react to it during the build up will absolutely feel this is anti-fun and feel shocked by the "one shot" timestamp.

Firts part is true. The second one about "timestamp", not agree, cuz we have bunch of classes who still do it even more effective than st bw/sorcs did it in their best years and its git gud.

In a more organized setting and balanced fight, there are multiple ways to shotting down the damage such as
- clensing
- interrupting the hardcasts to get the timestamp total burst out of sync
- absorbs
- mitigation layers such as detaunt, gaurd, Bellow, Clallenge
- prevention such as breaking range, Line of Sight, or counter ccing.

Forgot to add set back. This is a non-working damage dealer when he takes frequent damage. No other archetype in this game has so many ways to lose damage and so many conditions for dealing that damage. Probably only new DPS WP with its dependence on crits is closer, then others.

The issue and the hard part of balancing these classes is how it is the only options for playing the classes to play the backloaded burst focused around Crits.
You dont have an alternative to go, lets call it Arcane Blast spamming from WoW. Where you stand in the back and unload one Hard-casted spell after the other. The classes kinda suck at this aspect (I tried making a Casttime build around items + CQ and spamming undefendable fireballs, it sucked).
There also isnt an alternative build to stand in the back and having channeled immobile ranged abilities which are ramping up at the cost of you standing still and them becoming more potent, the current channels are mostly used for the first tick of the Channel to add into the Timestamp.

True.

Sorc & BW doesnt have alternatives to stacking Int, these classes have been 1050 softcapped on int since Conq era. With no other secondary offensive stat (like melee have WS) and theres no alternative to the class mechanic Critchance + Critdmg. There is not Renown point Strikethrough option to go into (there was breifly around 2018 when Dots could get disrupted on each time). So when the latest indirect nerf hit to strikethrough, your 1050 int from Conq Era still stayed the same, mixed with the Hold the Line logic-changes few years back you are now facing even more disrupt chances than ever and you have less tools or chances to bypass it.

Singletarget builds also took an indirect nerf to the proc-tactics for the owner, as a result of return of the proc meta after the ability database changes. Instead of fixing the proc meta which was resolved ish in 2018-2019 these new nerfs hit the proc tactics and affected ST specs for the meta of the aoe specs (used to be 75% proc chance for self, now its down to 40%)

The point is not that there is no striketrue, but that the evasion system itself has undergone major changes since live, and the bw/sorc themselves have remained the same, not adapted at all. The skeleton of the archetype. Other classes have changed for the better since live (except sl and marauder (marauder was extremely broken, i were 100 mrd btw)), but bw/sorc have not - they have changed for the worse, although even then they were killers of low lvls/pugs/bad players. Weaknesses and risks remained, but power not. BW/Sorc still use worser state of 2011-2014 years themselfs, when the others had major buffs.

Out of nowhere endgame BiS casters were too potent, despite the latest gear powerspike or patchnote buffing the singletarget timestamp in 2024. So the classmechanic that has been the very same since AoR live about ten years ago, needed to be toned down despite casters still running around in the same Sove gear. Instead of addressing the BiS gear powerspike if that was the issue, the whole class mechanic was the target affecting all casters from lvl 1 to RR80.

Not true. Magic casters haven't been the best at killing pugs for a long time. Much longer before the latest disruption changes and nerf of mechanics.
There have been classes for a long time that have surpassed bw/sorc in this area. And I don't see the point(think people responsible for balance) in balancing characters based on someone killing pugs while premade. It's not equivalent at all and is a bad benchmark for balance. Let me repeat - some can, others can't? Unconvincing. The reason is different.

What these classes probably need, is to get alternative ways to build outside of only the timestamp and the critchance.
Alternative playstyles like backline hardcasting, or ramping Challened dps that goes up while you stand still offering counterplay more easily or something like that.

True, but hard to implementations.

UPD - I forgot to add that all of the above applies to moments when there is a fight against equal opponents in a group - this is a group character, so we consider him in a group against other groups. And there bw/sork, for some reason, are very much inferior to others.