Gamedirection & targetaudience

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Poll: What areas of the game do you wish to see Development time going towards?

Balancing
42
17%
RvR systems
135
55%
Scenario matchmaking
61
25%
Pve
4
2%
Ranked
3
1%
Citysieges
1
0%
Total votes: 246

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wonshot
Posts: 1192

Re: Gamedirection & targetaudience

Post#71 » Wed Aug 28, 2024 2:30 am

Thanks for the many comments and votes guys.

The last few days ive just been reading, talking and thinking about the game. And I really have to ask the question
"what is the vision and direction of RoR?"
Three-Four years ago I attempted something simular, by trying to add volume and size behind the frustration about direction and shared concirn in the community. Unfortuneatly nothing really came of it, despite it being a warning and alarm desperation call from the community:
viewtopic.php?t=45512
Too many of these guilds are no longer playing, some still are, but very few have come since then.

When one of the servers oldest guilds and the highest RR players are pulling the plug as partly reason of gamedirection, lack of good action in rvr, and dwindling population and overall lost faith in the server. Then something seriously should be done to address that situation.
Loosing freebootaz might very well just be the stone that creates the avelance, already several guilds are one the last leg and without faith in the direction.
Which is not a new occurance, if we also just look two years back:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNYPNccr6Ws

If I connect these episodes on the RoR timeline.
We did the openletter scream for help four years ago. Rvr was ignored since then with some vague whispers about it might get attention after Ability rework.
Alright that took how many years, one? two? three? Global cooldown increase was changed ealier than abilitypatch, with the argumentation that this was gonna be needed for the ability patch, which then happend half a year later so we had to endure that nerf for half a year for no reason other than something in the future will make more sense :roll:

Now ability rework is done with, but has the overall product improved?
2021 summer RR gain reduction
Longer GCD
Ability rework taking several years and balancing afterwards is not even half way done
Attribute changes

Several directional changes all fall into the same question of:
Who are these changes for?
What they did have in common is to upset parts of the playerbase and population slowly downwards spiraling for each hit with bad patches.
Half broken promises such as restoring the Ironbreaker ability, "we will address rvr after abilityoverhaul" and no just a series of seemingly random changes pulled out of a hat, which almost noone is the playerbase outside of the guildmembers of balancingteam seem to understand. This has to beg the question of
Are you balancing the game for the playerbase, or who are the targetaudience?
Who asked for these WS/init changes. Has the game improved since then? Who asked for sorc/Bw ner, has the game improved? Was it woryh lowering the GCD, was the game better as a result? Has the game become more balanced, more competitive? What are we even trying to do with these changes, outside of the unintented effect of upsetting a community that has been tried and tested on the patience and we feel rather ignored when big dumps of feedback are not even attempted addressed over so many years. Does it take longer to add a 5minut locktimer on a Battleobjective in RvR instead of adding an NPC which can exchange WS to Init talismans?

Alright, so lets not be too unreasonable. I understand when putting countless manhours into ability rework that helps alot with future tweeking, bugfixing and overall quality of life from a coding perspective. That was probably needed, and we are glad it is done now.
Same for the roleplay cities added, they must feel amazing to cross off and say "hey look at this piece of content we added which wasnt on the Live servers" Amazing achivement, but also a whole lot of manhours used on something that adds close to zero replay ability for a game that was in massive content draught for years now. And all of this was decited to be done after the community feedback of please help RvR it needs attention desperately. Players have been voting since then, with their login. Population is dwindling, several guilds are calling it, one after ten years of enjoying RoR and about a handful more calling for last chance over the next month. This is not an untimatum, this is just the community being transparent with the RoR team.

Are the balancing team only responsable for career balancing, or is it all balance? Because right now, the last few years, last few patches especially and the reasoning behind. Cant be followed by big portions of the community based on feedback, population, and votes.
Someone at some points gotta ask the hard hitting question of
Are we working in the best interest of the server and playerbase with our vision, or is it time to rethink the vision?
I've personally taken breaks over the years of RoR, and it has almost never been because of ror patches that ive returned, it has been because i miss the core foundation this game is built on. The collision, the tactic slots, the morale system, the 2-2-2 setups. But each of my breaks has been as a result of lacking game systems that make the foundation be fun to pilot characters on.
I dont know how to make it any more obvious, I dont know if Community managers are going around talking to people too and if they see the same warning signs. But this is not just Summertime population, the burnout, patience, and faith is at an all time low and the population is critical with how many people are thinking about leaving currently!
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Lisutaris
Posts: 103

Re: Gamedirection & targetaudience

Post#72 » Wed Aug 28, 2024 2:54 am

well, not sure if this post is really helpful but..... I am all for completing the rework and balancing as it is in progress.
Having the opportuinity costs of stopping midway here, sounds very bad to me.
Ofc, there are different opinions in how balancing should be done and progressed. I am also someone who would have delivered those changes in a different way. Overall, these changes are not that bad at all, DPS RP/ Zealot finally got some love. The idea of having each class feeling important in 2 different specs/roles is quite important. Overall I am quite happy with the balance changes and team up to now. Only thing I would have to nag about is the overall speed and transparency/communication.

Afterwards, I would say it makes sense to take this poll into more consideration. When these big balancing changes are done, I would love to see the focus on different things and just minor adjustements in terms of balance (like ability,stats,....) adjustments.
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Culexus
Posts: 251

Re: Gamedirection & targetaudience

Post#73 » Wed Aug 28, 2024 7:25 am

Emissary posted on the discord's announcements channel last week with a bit of insight into what's happening with RvR.

To answer the main concern: Nath is the only one who’s 100% always dabbling and tweaking RvR, but the rest of us (me, Max, Dalen, Eka and Ruby) contribute when we can. We’ve got an idea board for RvR improvements, and several ideas are already approved and just need time to get implemented—like getting all three zones open again and a keep lord rez mechanic. Just to name a few of the many ideas on the board that have been approved/discussed. Your ideas are heard, put on the board, and voted on by the team.

Full post:
Spoiler:
Hey all,

I wanted to take a minute to chat about RvR and give you a glimpse into what’s happening behind the scenes. Now, I know there’s not a full-time dedicated team just for RvR right now (it’s summer and let’s be real, some of us like to touch grass when we can), but there’s work being done every single day.

You’ve got Nath, who’s on RvR whenever he’s not playing, running a guild, or handling real life. Then there’s me, working on revamping keep lords when I’m not running a business, raising kids, or trying to get some outdoor time. I’m probably putting in at least 30 hours a week into bug fixes, LUA coding, Chapter 22, and other stuff. Eka never sleeps and is always cranking out PvE content. Ruby’s juggling real life, leading a guild, and still manages to find time for Chapter 22.

Dalen’s out there tweaking balance, matchmaking, and the kill board while balancing work, real life, and playing the game. He’s also the one we go to when we get stuck on coding. Max has a job, enjoys his life, and loves his cat, but he’s constantly trying to steer us towards the right vision. He’s been giving me all the LUA access I need to make things better since I’m no C# coder, plus he listens to my 24/7 rants about QoL changes you all want.

Our artists? They put in hours with barely any recognition. And shoutout to Gobtar, who’s been helping out with Chapter 22 when he’s not busy with life or playing the game. Zumos and Bejkon? They’re the ones pulling together spreadsheets, jumping on voice chats with Dalen, playing the game, and hashing out what they think is best for balance after gathering feedback from the community. When it comes to ability changes, at this second they do not have access to Dalens handy ability tool, so Dalen mostly implements there thoughts or changes and I help with it when asked or needed.

Let’s not forget Warg and Sio, who are always keeping an eye out for bad actors and trying to keep things chill.

So, here I am, waking up to my first real vacation of the year. I haven’t even had to juggle my job during it yet, and I’m getting ready to celebrate my youngest having a birthday this week. The point is, we all have real lives, we all love this game, and we’re all putting in the work for the community every day. There just aren’t a lot of us on the backend.

To answer the main concern: Nath is the only one who’s 100% always dabbling and tweaking RvR, but the rest of us (me, Max, Dalen, Eka and Ruby) contribute when we can. We’ve got an idea board for RvR improvements, and several ideas are already approved and just need time to get implemented—like getting all three zones open again and a keep lord rez mechanic. Just to name a few of the many ideas on the board that have been approved/discussed. Your ideas are heard, put on the board, and voted on by the team.

If I’m slow to respond, it’s probably because of work, family, life, or the fact that when you’re posting, it’s 3 AM for me. But trust me, we’re here, and we’re putting in the hours to make RoR better.

Appreciate you all, and let’s keep this going!
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Everdin
Posts: 742

Re: Gamedirection & targetaudience

Post#74 » Wed Aug 28, 2024 7:41 am

Shima wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2024 2:33 pm At least, this post shows that playerbase don't want and dont care for pve changes. It's just an incredible waste of time reworking on Public quests and quests lines while the core is bugged and boring.
Thats not correct, it's just not anybodys main concern. (Even this is not exactly true, cause there are votes)
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nat3s
Posts: 470

Re: Gamedirection & targetaudience

Post#75 » Wed Aug 28, 2024 7:53 am

sc balance followed closely by rvr balance would be my preference. Anytime newer players are exposed to being stomped repeatedly for hours on end, I think retention problems will follow. Being stomped for an hour or so is manageable, but the current approach to SC, a newer low RR player will struggle to find an organised SC group and can therefore spend an entire playsession over multiple hours being stomped over and over.

That feels awful.

The excuse that is often used is competitive players want organised pvp in groups, however from the lack of uptake in ranked, it seems fairly evident that they purely want to stomp lowbies. I don't think pandering to that is good for the game as much as the social hook can feel good for the minority doing it.

We need to get organised groups out of random pug SCs. Make that the domain of group SCs / ranked / world rvr.

SCs whilst levelling feel awesome, you get the odd organised group, but far less often and so, for me, SCs are way more enjoyable pre 40.
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Everdin
Posts: 742

Re: Gamedirection & targetaudience

Post#76 » Wed Aug 28, 2024 9:02 am

nat3s wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2024 7:53 am sc balance followed closely by rvr balance would be my preference. Anytime newer players are exposed to being stomped repeatedly for hours on end, I think retention problems will follow. Being stomped for an hour or so is manageable, but the current approach to SC, a newer low RR player will struggle to find an organised SC group and can therefore spend an entire playsession over multiple hours being stomped over and over.

That feels awful.

The excuse that is often used is competitive players want organised pvp in groups, however from the lack of uptake in ranked, it seems fairly evident that they purely want to stomp lowbies. I don't think pandering to that is good for the game as much as the social hook can feel good for the minority doing it.

We need to get organised groups out of random pug SCs. Make that the domain of group SCs / ranked / world rvr.

SCs whilst levelling feel awesome, you get the odd organised group, but far less often and so, for me, SCs are way more enjoyable pre 40.
At this point I don't know anymore if people like you are just trolls or give up reading threads after the title and just blasting their nonsense out.

Try to learn about the topic you write about.

Use this for example:

viewtopic.php?t=53470&start=30#p558152

or this

viewtopic.php?t=53740&start=40#p561239

and answer yourself the question why you think ranked and regular group sc is different content for different kind of groups.

Do we need organised groups out of discordant? Hell yeah, if this is still an issue!
Do we need organised groups out of regular sc? No, it's meant for them!
Do solos and pugs already have a nice safespace? Yes, discordant sc is exactly what your are looking for.
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Lion1986
Posts: 488

Re: Gamedirection & targetaudience

Post#77 » Wed Aug 28, 2024 11:03 am

The rvr rework was asked many times yet we keep on having Amazon delivery simulator
I seriously hope devs do something about it or server will keep bleed out. Me and many of my guildies just week end log for scenario and little more. Campaign lost any relevance. Cities are meme and lotd is just another zerg area. Not very appealing. I agree with bombling that a deep rework of rvr could revamp interest.
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nat3s
Posts: 470

Re: Gamedirection & targetaudience

Post#78 » Wed Aug 28, 2024 11:30 am

Everdin wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2024 9:02 am
nat3s wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2024 7:53 am sc balance followed closely by rvr balance would be my preference. Anytime newer players are exposed to being stomped repeatedly for hours on end, I think retention problems will follow. Being stomped for an hour or so is manageable, but the current approach to SC, a newer low RR player will struggle to find an organised SC group and can therefore spend an entire playsession over multiple hours being stomped over and over.

That feels awful.

The excuse that is often used is competitive players want organised pvp in groups, however from the lack of uptake in ranked, it seems fairly evident that they purely want to stomp lowbies. I don't think pandering to that is good for the game as much as the social hook can feel good for the minority doing it.

We need to get organised groups out of random pug SCs. Make that the domain of group SCs / ranked / world rvr.

SCs whilst levelling feel awesome, you get the odd organised group, but far less often and so, for me, SCs are way more enjoyable pre 40.
At this point I don't know anymore if people like you are just trolls or give up reading threads after the title and just blasting their nonsense out.

Try to learn about the topic you write about.

Use this for example:

viewtopic.php?t=53470&start=30#p558152

or this

viewtopic.php?t=53740&start=40#p561239

and answer yourself the question why you think ranked and regular group sc is different content for different kind of groups.

Do we need organised groups out of discordant? Hell yeah, if this is still an issue!
Do we need organised groups out of regular sc? No, it's meant for them!
Do solos and pugs already have a nice safespace? Yes, discordant sc is exactly what your are looking for.

1 of the threads you linked, I created it.

I disagree, here are my thoughts:

Do we need organised groups out of discordant? Hell yeah, if this is still an issue!

* I think the design needs reversing, have an SC option for groups, make the default random matchmaking.

Do we need organised groups out of regular sc? No, it's meant for them!

* I disagree, that's what ranked is for - if those groups want actual group v group content and not just stomping uncoordinated players.

Do solos and pugs already have a nice safespace? Yes, discordant sc is exactly what your are looking for.

* Discordant SC is a single SC which does not cater to weekly SC events.

I think by making group play the default, is prioritising the minority over the majority. Blizz removed it for a reason.

If you want the game to centre around group play, I think you're designing to a smaller demographic. Maybe there is a middle ground where discordant and group are entirely separate queues which both cover all SCs including the weekend event.
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reyaloran
Posts: 68

Re: Gamedirection & targetaudience

Post#79 » Wed Aug 28, 2024 11:45 am

nat3s wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2024 11:30 am
Everdin wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2024 9:02 am
nat3s wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2024 7:53 am sc balance followed closely by rvr balance would be my preference. Anytime newer players are exposed to being stomped repeatedly for hours on end, I think retention problems will follow. Being stomped for an hour or so is manageable, but the current approach to SC, a newer low RR player will struggle to find an organised SC group and can therefore spend an entire playsession over multiple hours being stomped over and over.

That feels awful.

The excuse that is often used is competitive players want organised pvp in groups, however from the lack of uptake in ranked, it seems fairly evident that they purely want to stomp lowbies. I don't think pandering to that is good for the game as much as the social hook can feel good for the minority doing it.

We need to get organised groups out of random pug SCs. Make that the domain of group SCs / ranked / world rvr.

SCs whilst levelling feel awesome, you get the odd organised group, but far less often and so, for me, SCs are way more enjoyable pre 40.
At this point I don't know anymore if people like you are just trolls or give up reading threads after the title and just blasting their nonsense out.

Try to learn about the topic you write about.

Use this for example:

viewtopic.php?t=53470&start=30#p558152

or this

viewtopic.php?t=53740&start=40#p561239

and answer yourself the question why you think ranked and regular group sc is different content for different kind of groups.

Do we need organised groups out of discordant? Hell yeah, if this is still an issue!
Do we need organised groups out of regular sc? No, it's meant for them!
Do solos and pugs already have a nice safespace? Yes, discordant sc is exactly what your are looking for.

1 of the threads you linked, I created it.

I disagree, here are my thoughts:

Do we need organised groups out of discordant? Hell yeah, if this is still an issue!

* I think the design needs reversing, have an SC option for groups, make the default random matchmaking.

Do we need organised groups out of regular sc? No, it's meant for them!

* I disagree, that's what ranked is for - if those groups want actual group v group content and not just stomping uncoordinated players.

Do solos and pugs already have a nice safespace? Yes, discordant sc is exactly what your are looking for.

* Discordant SC is a single SC which does not cater to weekly SC events.

I think by making group play the default, is prioritising the minority over the majority. Blizz removed it for a reason.

If you want the game to centre around group play, I think you're designing to a smaller demographic. Maybe there is a middle ground where discordant and group are entirely separate queues which both cover all SCs including the weekend event.
This guy has to be a troll. You refuse to use the system in place for solos and are angry when others who want to do more then the bare minimum in a mmo play the mode that is made for them. Ranked is not for most premades or /5 groups since 6 v 6 is an unbalanced mess and generally the game plays better at 12 v 12 or higher. As for the discordant SC not catering to the weekend war front, go look up the post from when the weekend war front was introduced and you will see it was added as a small incentive for groups to play in SCs. Again stop being angry that others want to do more then just login and do the bare minimum and use the queue that was already made explicitly for your demographic.

Zxul
Posts: 1890

Re: Gamedirection & targetaudience

Post#80 » Wed Aug 28, 2024 11:51 am

reyaloran wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2024 11:45 am This guy has to be a troll. You refuse to use the system in place for solos and are angry when others who want to do more then the bare minimum in a mmo play the mode that is made for them. Ranked is not for most premades or /5 groups since 6 v 6 is an unbalanced mess and generally the game plays better at 12 v 12 or higher. As for the discordant SC not catering to the weekend war front, go look up the post from when the weekend war front was introduced and you will see it was added as a small incentive for groups to play in SCs. Again stop being angry that others want to do more then just login and do the bare minimum and use the queue that was already made explicitly for your demographic.
Lets make everybody happy then. Make two version of weekend scenario- regular one, and discordant one. Deal?
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