Baseline Damage Logic

[Muurloen]

I am not meaning this for flaming, I mean this for something to talk about and improve on, because after the AoE changes. I am not feeling it anymore at all with my character in dealing, and another character that is guarding damage dealers and healers that are getting deleted.

When it comes to damage, pure melee dps should always be top dog for single target, no questions, un-adulterated all single target abilities.
When AOE and deviations from Melee DPS, there should be a deduction from that baseline
If you have a large/wide damaging ability, there should be a deduction from that baseline
If you have are at ranged and dealing damage ability, there should be a deduction from that baseline
If you are a damage dealer, but can heal, there should be a deduction from that melee dps baseline
If you a damage dealer, and are tanking, there should be a deduction from that melee dps baseline.
If you are a damage dealer, and you are ranged, there should be a deduction from that dps baseline

I can go on for days in writing out a baseline logic for how damage should be.

Again I am not here to inflame, I am here to to bring about a level baseline that damage should be worked from in going forward with any changes that in coming, or being discussed about.

[Muurloen]

What is really neat, is that BattleField 1 with sniper rifles had a sweet spot range when it came with Sniper Rifles.

If you were in that Sweet Spot Range, you dealt an optimal amount of damage for that Sniper Rifle.

Things to think about.

[Mordecaieth]

I just want to state first that the following are only my opinions and thoughts. As someone who is primarily a scenario player.

I found this post pretty interesting- probably mostly because I have shared parts of your gripes as someone who has mostly only played melee for a good 70% of my playthrough on this Warhammer EMU, I'm just going to guess around 3k hours of melee dps/tank classes.

Often times I have found that melee dps, whether on a pure damage dealer or a 2h tank is usually always underwhelming, unless the stars align (you have a competent guard or melee dps to work in tangent with, decent spot heals, positioning, enemy team comp etc.)

I find my melee dps a bit miserable to play as a pug toon. Their gear is not amazing, (vanq/bloodlord) and I am not especially skillful with mdps, but that being said- I know how to play, which targets to prioritize in say a 12v12.

Healers and tanks feel extremely strong. Like, almost way too strong. And anyone with half a brain who can guard switch to keep a healer safe just makes the game extremely punishing to those who are pushing, and more rewarding for those who play defensive. You can see this mirrored in different playstyle as well. Toughness warband comps, range and tank dps comps, toughness/avoidance small man builds, regen hp builds, etc.

To go back to the original post though- I feel as though the "blame", if there is any to pinpoint, could be a few different things. I'll just list a few in no specific order that I personally believe to attribute to very slow TTK.

1. Guard mitigation is too high or perhaps too effective.

2. Armor is especially easy to get/achieve for medium/heavy armor toons. You couldn't feel it as much when Invader/Bloodlord was BiS - I suspect Sovereign gear introduced abnormally high armor values and health regeneration/toughness.

3. Dwarf armor tactic/Orc wounds tactic.

4. Detaunt is extremely powerful and readily available for most classes.

5. There is no rival to the typical use of armor pots. The only other is Thorns and the use is extremely niche.

6. And last but not least, any morales which give 100% avoidance for any period of time also attribute to longer TTK and avoidance builds, something which is already easy to stack.

7. GCD increase.

This post is getting long, and I'm sure I missed a few things. But it kind of feels like melee damage is falling behind a bit as the tiers of gear get stronger. There was an armor talisman nerf a few years back which honestly was for the best, all things considered today.

[Omegus]

1. When it comes to damage, pure melee dps should always be top dog for single target, no questions, un-adulterated all single target abilities.
2. When AOE and deviations from Melee DPS, there should be a deduction from that baseline
3. If you have a large/wide damaging ability, there should be a deduction from that baseline
4. If you have are at ranged and dealing damage ability, there should be a deduction from that baseline
5. If you are a damage dealer, but can heal, there should be a deduction from that melee dps baseline
6. If you a damage dealer, and are tanking, there should be a deduction from that melee dps baseline.
7. If you are a damage dealer, and you are ranged, there should be a deduction from that dps baseline

2. No idea what "and deviations" is referring to but AOE damage is already reduced from single target since the great AOE nerf in patch 1.3 back in 2009. There were a couple of outliers (Slayer/Choppa) and I have no idea how their AOE/ST specs compare these days.
3. Is this the same as #2?
4. Already covered by 1?
5. Already exists.
6. Already exists. Remember there is more than just damage on the tooltip: tactics and career mechanics of DPS characters can significantly boost numbers over the tooltip.
7. Already covered by 1 and 4?

So really it just comes to #1. Melee DPS and ranged DPS classes (proper ones, not hybrids) are both DPS classes. If ranged want to do their big damage then their mobility is hindered as some of the abilities require them to stand still while casting (which can also then be set back, interrupted, etc), while melee get full mobility while doing damage. If ranged wants their mobility then they need to sacrifice some damage for insta-casts which are then at risk of being cleansed. You also haven't taken into account that some specs do back-loaded damage (delayed damage) which is highly telegraphed and much easier to interrupt - should the ranged class have a damage penalty for a complicated rotation that needs the stars to align to be fully effective?

All ranged careers also have to deal with a defensive mechanic that melee does not: Hold the Line. Tanks with a brain (and a shield) significantly reduce the hit chance of ranged/magic classes which lowers their overall damage.

Also, if a "ranged" class is in a close-range PBAoE spec, would you say it should have lower damage compared to a melee PBAoE spec even though the mobility and defensive options of the ranged class are far less than the melee version?

[lumpi33]

If ranged want to do their big damage then their mobility is hindered as some of the abilities require them to stand still while casting

SHs:

[Fenris78]

Big issue with ranged, both magic and physical DPS, is currently the avoidances rework (dodge given by initiative, disrupt by willpower, on a linear basis, and free strikethrough with offensive stat) is effectively negating all ranged defenses for most characters, saving healers who can get at least some base disrupt against casters.

Otherwise, everyone got their dodge and disrupt greatly lowered, and pretty much reduced to zero by any endgear with a bit of strikethrough.
Being able to stack strikethrough with legendary talismans, and some debuffs (word of pain, withered soul, etc.) are aggravating the issue.

The main issue is now ranged are not doing too much BASELINE damage, it's simply they are hitting effectively against zero avoidances, unlike pre-balance patch situation where adequate investment allowed around 15-20% effective avoidances.

Wonder why ranged DPS (and by extension DPS healers) are doing so much kills and damage ? Exactly because of how avoidances are working right now.
Wich further exacerbate the roaming meta unbalances with ST ranged classes (mainly SH/Sham/SW/Sorc) everywhere.

[Rydiak]

Eh not entirely accurate. The difference in avoidance between the two patches (pre and post) is actually quite minimal. What was primarily changed was the very convoluted formula which determined the avoidance contribution from secondary stats (weapon skill, initiative, willpower) was simplified to first provide the avoidance without also requiring the main stat (strength, ballistic skill, intelligence) of the attacker to be a part of the equation. You are correct that the end result was a decrease in effective avoidance, but in most cases that difference was less than 5 percentage points.

I personally think that everyone was so used to melee AoE being the dominant damage source on the battlefield for so long under the 24-target cap that Parry was THE avoidance to stack. And now that the cap has been lowered to 9 it has allowed single-target ranged attackers to shine, which when people are Parry-stacked and not Dodge/Disrupt-stacked makes a glaring difference.

My recommendation to everyone is to switch some renown/gear to Dodge/Disrupt (and for tanks to use Hold the Line) and run with that for a while before providing feedback about ranged damage.

[Fenris78]

[Snip] You are correct that the end result was a decrease in effective avoidance, but in most cases that difference was less than 5 percentage points.

I assure you the 5 percentage point is huge when you have base 20-24% dodge/disrupt at best on most classes, with maxed renown and BiS gear.

You go from an effective average of 18-20% ranged avoidances (about 26% base accounting willpower/Initiative for most classes), wich was already very low especially compared to Parry/Block stacking capabilities of tanks and mdps, to 10-15% at best (more 20-25% disrupt for healers).

And thats not accounting for tactics like elf racial or Pierce Defenses wich effectively negate all your defense from ranged.

I dont consider normal or desirable the actual situation where ranged dps are facing virtually zero avoidances against their attacks, especially magic ones wich usually come with very high resistances debuff, globally negating all form of defense against them.

Ranged DPS should face a nearly similar amount of defenses from dodge/disrupt than you got from parry, wich is currently the highest natural defenses you can get now with any decent melee or tank character.
The ability to deal damage from range should justify the same level of investment (using skill debuffs, gear and tactics to lower avoidances) than you need from getting through parry.

TLDR ; what's the point of spending 20 renown points into dodge/disrupt, when in the end your 24% is becoming an effective 0 to 10% ?
While parry is a far more reliable defense, requiring actual gameplay from the attacker (getting in your back before hitting), and if correctly applied means a 20-30% effective defense.

About baselin damage, I agree there should be a balance for hybrid healer specs, like :

- For AM/Sham : getting rid of either 25% damage bonus from mechanic OR tactic, currently getting 4k non-crit damage on a single dot is far out of proportion, especially for ranged and accounting previous remarks about magic debuffs and avoidances (Shaman Dots are effectively always hitting on nullified toughness and resistances for most targets, for instance)

- For DPS/hybrid specced DoK/WP : make lifetaps for either High damage / low heal, or low damage / High heal, this way they will do either big damage OR big healing, but not the two at the same time, wich is currently the main issue of these specs being unbeatable in small scale.

[Rydiak]

Several of my old proposals had already reduced damage and increased healing for the shield specs. For example, my current damage:healing ratio is about 20-30:70-80. I'd say this is about perfect for what the spec is intended to do, which is output healing while also contributing damage about on par with an active tank.