Look how they massacred my girl (Witch elf)

[Tanski]

This is in regard to group based play, a ST group in city/scs. Please dont turn this thread into a solo roaming arguement like every other we/wh post. I have recently come back to the game after a 2 year hiatus and did some testing.

Both Choppa/WE same gear sov/sent/triumph mix with bloodlord/fort weapon and str pots on city dummies. both about 950 str, but full ws talis

Witch elf - BE, TOB, FM, BF - full 5 stack ruthless assault channel on dummy with TOB proc - 700- 900 damage. I did not use increased pain because outside of coordinating with another dps with HD you will be needing BLB (HD).

Choppa - hit red, press furious choppin - over 900-950 damage per tick channel , was even using defensive im da biggest tactic.

I realize furious choppin is a longer CD but it does not require building to 5 stacks and waiting on tob proc like WE.

Why would you even bring a WE to a city/sc group now. What is the plan here? Spamming AW with with WB feel unintuitive but seems to be the only viable playstyle, even if was always a pretty mediocre option to the carnage build. SS is still as pepe as always.

I dont even want to touch my WE even after leveling post renown nerf which took ages to do. I hope this is addressed in DPS rework, and we is not given some meme aoe build for wb play while continuing to not perform its role well as a ST dps.
Just reverting bleeding edge nerf would bring carnage spec back to viability IMO

[Avernus]

This is in regard to group based play, a ST group in city/scs. Please dont turn this thread into a solo roaming arguement like every other we/wh post. I have recently come back to the game after a 2 year hiatus and did some testing.

Both Choppa/WE same gear sov/sent/triumph mix with bloodlord/fort weapon and str pots on city dummies. both about 950 str, but full ws talis

Witch elf - BE, TOB, FM, BF - full 5 stack ruthless assault channel on dummy with TOB proc - 700- 900 damage. I did not use increased pain because outside of coordinating with another dps with HD you will be needing BLB (HD).

Choppa - hit red, press furious choppin - over 900-950 damage per tick channel , was even using defensive im da biggest tactic.

I realize furious choppin is a longer CD but it does not require building to 5 stacks and waiting on tob proc like WE.

Why would you even bring a WE to a city/sc group now. What is the plan here? Spamming AW with with WB feel unintuitive but seems to be the only viable playstyle, even if was always a pretty mediocre option to the carnage build. SS is still as pepe as always.

I dont even want to touch my WE even after leveling post renown nerf which took ages to do. I hope this is addressed in DPS rework, and we is not given some meme aoe build for wb play while continuing to not perform its role well as a ST dps.
Just reverting bleeding edge nerf would bring carnage spec back to viability IMO

To summarize this stuff - you are wondering why you can't deal any damage after removing your mandatory dps tactic...

Ask choppa to not go into yellow/red - then he can be an opponent you deserve.

[Tanski]

This is in regard to group based play, a ST group in city/scs. Please dont turn this thread into a solo roaming arguement like every other we/wh post. I have recently come back to the game after a 2 year hiatus and did some testing.

Both Choppa/WE same gear sov/sent/triumph mix with bloodlord/fort weapon and str pots on city dummies. both about 950 str, but full ws talis

Witch elf - BE, TOB, FM, BF - full 5 stack ruthless assault channel on dummy with TOB proc - 700- 900 damage. I did not use increased pain because outside of coordinating with another dps with HD you will be needing BLB (HD).

Choppa - hit red, press furious choppin - over 900-950 damage per tick channel , was even using defensive im da biggest tactic.

I realize furious choppin is a longer CD but it does not require building to 5 stacks and waiting on tob proc like WE.

Why would you even bring a WE to a city/sc group now. What is the plan here? Spamming AW with with WB feel unintuitive but seems to be the only viable playstyle, even if was always a pretty mediocre option to the carnage build. SS is still as pepe as always.

I dont even want to touch my WE even after leveling post renown nerf which took ages to do. I hope this is addressed in DPS rework, and we is not given some meme aoe build for wb play while continuing to not perform its role well as a ST dps.
Just reverting bleeding edge nerf would bring carnage spec back to viability IMO

To summarize this stuff - you are wondering why you can't deal any damage after removing your mandatory dps tactic...

Ask choppa to not go into yellow/red - then he can be an opponent you deserve.

You will not kill any players in good groups without heal debuff. Only having 1 in group is still 10 second cd. Yes the damage will increase, but pre nerf WE would do 1k + on dummies even without increased pain, 1200-1500 with it. Keep in mind, the other mdps get to have their heal debuff without sacrifice, even wh as the playstyle is completly different and you will go either EW or BaL . There is no reason for a choppa to not be red unless they detaunt and are kiting damage anyway, why would a choppa be dpsing in green? the majority of the time exhaustive blows are just a loss of dps.

[Zxul]

This is in regard to group based play, a ST group in city/scs. Please dont turn this thread into a solo roaming arguement like every other we/wh post. I have recently come back to the game after a 2 year hiatus and did some testing.

Both Choppa/WE same gear sov/sent/triumph mix with bloodlord/fort weapon and str pots on city dummies. both about 950 str, but full ws talis

Witch elf - BE, TOB, FM, BF - full 5 stack ruthless assault channel on dummy with TOB proc - 700- 900 damage. I did not use increased pain because outside of coordinating with another dps with HD you will be needing BLB (HD).

Choppa - hit red, press furious choppin - over 900-950 damage per tick channel , was even using defensive im da biggest tactic.

I realize furious choppin is a longer CD but it does not require building to 5 stacks and waiting on tob proc like WE.

Why would you even bring a WE to a city/sc group now. What is the plan here? Spamming AW with with WB feel unintuitive but seems to be the only viable playstyle, even if was always a pretty mediocre option to the carnage build. SS is still as pepe as always.

I dont even want to touch my WE even after leveling post renown nerf which took ages to do. I hope this is addressed in DPS rework, and we is not given some meme aoe build for wb play while continuing to not perform its role well as a ST dps.
Just reverting bleeding edge nerf would bring carnage spec back to viability IMO

To summarize this stuff - you are wondering why you can't deal any damage after removing your mandatory dps tactic...

Ask choppa to not go into yellow/red - then he can be an opponent you deserve.

The crit dmg tactic isn't mandatory- it was never used in RA spec, including for that matter by WEs in ranked.

[Avernus]

This is in regard to group based play, a ST group in city/scs. Please dont turn this thread into a solo roaming arguement like every other we/wh post. I have recently come back to the game after a 2 year hiatus and did some testing.

Both Choppa/WE same gear sov/sent/triumph mix with bloodlord/fort weapon and str pots on city dummies. both about 950 str, but full ws talis

Witch elf - BE, TOB, FM, BF - full 5 stack ruthless assault channel on dummy with TOB proc - 700- 900 damage. I did not use increased pain because outside of coordinating with another dps with HD you will be needing BLB (HD).

Choppa - hit red, press furious choppin - over 900-950 damage per tick channel , was even using defensive im da biggest tactic.

I realize furious choppin is a longer CD but it does not require building to 5 stacks and waiting on tob proc like WE.

Why would you even bring a WE to a city/sc group now. What is the plan here? Spamming AW with with WB feel unintuitive but seems to be the only viable playstyle, even if was always a pretty mediocre option to the carnage build. SS is still as pepe as always.

I dont even want to touch my WE even after leveling post renown nerf which took ages to do. I hope this is addressed in DPS rework, and we is not given some meme aoe build for wb play while continuing to not perform its role well as a ST dps.
Just reverting bleeding edge nerf would bring carnage spec back to viability IMO

To summarize this stuff - you are wondering why you can't deal any damage after removing your mandatory dps tactic...

Ask choppa to not go into yellow/red - then he can be an opponent you deserve.

The crit dmg tactic isn't mandatory- it was never used in RA spec, including for that matter by WEs in ranked.

But, it's still supposed to be your best bet on increasing your own damage. Why would you hope to outdps full red choppa without using everything you can?

[Avernus]

This is in regard to group based play, a ST group in city/scs. Please dont turn this thread into a solo roaming arguement like every other we/wh post. I have recently come back to the game after a 2 year hiatus and did some testing.

Both Choppa/WE same gear sov/sent/triumph mix with bloodlord/fort weapon and str pots on city dummies. both about 950 str, but full ws talis

Witch elf - BE, TOB, FM, BF - full 5 stack ruthless assault channel on dummy with TOB proc - 700- 900 damage. I did not use increased pain because outside of coordinating with another dps with HD you will be needing BLB (HD).

Choppa - hit red, press furious choppin - over 900-950 damage per tick channel , was even using defensive im da biggest tactic.

I realize furious choppin is a longer CD but it does not require building to 5 stacks and waiting on tob proc like WE.

Why would you even bring a WE to a city/sc group now. What is the plan here? Spamming AW with with WB feel unintuitive but seems to be the only viable playstyle, even if was always a pretty mediocre option to the carnage build. SS is still as pepe as always.

I dont even want to touch my WE even after leveling post renown nerf which took ages to do. I hope this is addressed in DPS rework, and we is not given some meme aoe build for wb play while continuing to not perform its role well as a ST dps.
Just reverting bleeding edge nerf would bring carnage spec back to viability IMO

To summarize this stuff - you are wondering why you can't deal any damage after removing your mandatory dps tactic...

Ask choppa to not go into yellow/red - then he can be an opponent you deserve.

You will not kill any players in good groups without heal debuff. Only having 1 in group is still 10 second cd. Yes the damage will increase, but pre nerf WE would do 1k + on dummies even without increased pain, 1200-1500 with it. Keep in mind, the other mdps get to have their heal debuff without sacrifice, even wh as the playstyle is completly different and you will go either EW or BaL . There is no reason for a choppa to not be red unless they detaunt and are kiting damage anyway, why would a choppa be dpsing in green? the majority of the time exhaustive blows are just a loss of dps.

Go for 2+3 or deal with the fact that HD would be someone else's job. Btw, using thic logic, WL is dead class by deafult since it has no HD (it is kinda dead though, i admit that)

About choppa - that was sarcasm. Why are hoping to outdps full red choppa while refusing to utilize your best bet on increasing your damage? Don't want to sacrifice some utility/skill/whatever? Well, its your choice, just don't try to compete with one of the best sources of raw damage in the game.

[Tanski]

To summarize this stuff - you are wondering why you can't deal any damage after removing your mandatory dps tactic...

Ask choppa to not go into yellow/red - then he can be an opponent you deserve.

You will not kill any players in good groups without heal debuff. Only having 1 in group is still 10 second cd. Yes the damage will increase, but pre nerf WE would do 1k + on dummies even without increased pain, 1200-1500 with it. Keep in mind, the other mdps get to have their heal debuff without sacrifice, even wh as the playstyle is completly different and you will go either EW or BaL . There is no reason for a choppa to not be red unless they detaunt and are kiting damage anyway, why would a choppa be dpsing in green? the majority of the time exhaustive blows are just a loss of dps.

Go for 2+3 or deal with the fact that HD would be someone else's job. Btw, using thic logic, WL is dead class by deafult since it has no HD (it is kinda dead though, i admit that)

About choppa - that was sarcasm. Why are hoping to outdps full red choppa while refusing to utilize your best bet on increasing your damage? Don't want to sacrifice some utility/skill/whatever? Well, its your choice, just don't try to compete with one of the best sources of raw damage in the game.

Choppa has better autos + aa speed increase, guranteed proc on melee (kisses 25% and worse version of wh), aoe pressure with st ( i know its been nerfed but still there), choppa is tankier as with wounds tactic + med armor if they use detaunt like a good player, choppa does not have to build up a resource like we to be effective ( a good tank interupting WE channel was the counterplay to this playstyle, same could be said for choppa but they still have consistent pressure with the dmg increase from mechanic). In the past they were pretty close, now I dont believe it is close at all. WE carnage playstyle was always to WP into PA, get 5 stack tob and unleash channel. You build up and burst, now thats been gutted. I dont want to compare to wh again but, wh abso + EW can crit well over 2k+, bal can crit 1800+ on light armor, wh guranteed bullet procs and has spammable resource due to FA.

As for WL, not comparible as WL is frontloaded burst for free, you literally just FO into CS for the best mdps burst in the game with no mechanic. Also medium armor class with autos that can hit almost up to 2k..... Even if you kill the tanky pet it can be revived in 15 seconds

[Avernus]

You will not kill any players in good groups without heal debuff. Only having 1 in group is still 10 second cd. Yes the damage will increase, but pre nerf WE would do 1k + on dummies even without increased pain, 1200-1500 with it. Keep in mind, the other mdps get to have their heal debuff without sacrifice, even wh as the playstyle is completly different and you will go either EW or BaL . There is no reason for a choppa to not be red unless they detaunt and are kiting damage anyway, why would a choppa be dpsing in green? the majority of the time exhaustive blows are just a loss of dps.

Go for 2+3 or deal with the fact that HD would be someone else's job. Btw, using thic logic, WL is dead class by deafult since it has no HD (it is kinda dead though, i admit that)

About choppa - that was sarcasm. Why are hoping to outdps full red choppa while refusing to utilize your best bet on increasing your damage? Don't want to sacrifice some utility/skill/whatever? Well, its your choice, just don't try to compete with one of the best sources of raw damage in the game.

1. Choppa has better autos + aa speed increase, guranteed proc on melee (kisses 25% and worse version of wh), aoe pressure with st ( i know its been nerfed but still there), choppa is tankier as with wounds tactic + med armor if they use detaunt like a good player, choppa does not have to build up a resource like we to be effective ( a good tank interupting WE channel was the counterplay to this playstyle, same could be said for choppa but they still have consistent pressure with the dmg increase from mechanic). In the past they were pretty close, now I dont believe it is close at all. WE carnage playstyle was always to WP into PA, get 5 stack tob and unleash channel. You build up and burst, now thats been gutted. I dont want to compare to wh again but, wh abso + EW can crit well over 2k+, bal can crit 1800+ on light armor, wh guranteed bullet procs and has spammable resource due to FA.

2 As for WL, not comparible as WL is frontloaded burst for free, you literally just FO into CS for the best mdps burst in the game with no mechanic. Also medium armor class with autos that can hit almost up to 2k..... Even if you kill the tanky pet it can be revived in 15 seconds

1. Yeah, its true. Btw, choppa has no "i just go away and you can't do anything about it" skills while solo roaming (i'm sure they want to have them) or outcoming healing debuff which just works ets. Different skillset for different purpose etc. Obviously, you can't outshine him using half-measures and even then - the results can be kinda questionable - since "in yer face" is choppa's specialty while WE is more like burst'n'run (supposed to, anyways).

2. Still, the fact that you have no HD as WL means that your options for second dps are kinda limited - or you're playing in VERY good team which can do some wombo-combo to mitigate the lack of HD (unlikely). Usually, if you have a pet, it WILL be killed - and your dps will die too.

[gersy]

interesting take tbh. i find the opposite to be true. i don't rly have time to reply back and forth in depth cuz i cba as i've talked the topic to death trying to get people to realize how the game actually is.. but WE/WH are actually in a really good spot imo (not solo, idc about this and as you said it isn't the point) as far as city ST/6v6/SC groups and 6man roaming goes.

with the aoe, proc and other class nerfs you can kind of breathe again and not instadie to ID spam/WA spam vs SL/WL etc, and you're still bringing GREAT utility in the form of RKD, morale pump/drain, IHD+OHD, anti-rez, good defensive/kite capability, anti-rez, strong morales, etc.

when you play with coordinated/skilled players who know how to play around these things, the reason to bring these classes becomes very obvious. if you are playing with noobs or weak org then sure i agree just bring another choppa and play like average guy. but it doesn't always have to be the case. sitting and training people like with choppa isn't the play on stealth classes. you must do quick swaps with good assist and fast guard punt+KD and rotate between all the enemy healers to get their pot/defensive CDs and come back after their immunity when they have no outs.

you don't play these classes to do damage chart numbers and show off and try to compare them to aoe classes, you play them for their utility and burst damage profile. when played properly and in the right circumstances they are more than strong enough atm honestly. the issue is that almost all players do not play at the skill level to make them useful and just go around spamming abilities mindlessly and doing improper goes on poorly chosen targets.

[siglade]

This is in regard to group based play, a ST group in city/scs. Please dont turn this thread into a solo roaming arguement like every other we/wh post. I have recently come back to the game after a 2 year hiatus and did some testing.

Both Choppa/WE same gear sov/sent/triumph mix with bloodlord/fort weapon and str pots on city dummies. both about 950 str, but full ws talis

Witch elf - BE, TOB, FM, BF - full 5 stack ruthless assault channel on dummy with TOB proc - 700- 900 damage. I did not use increased pain because outside of coordinating with another dps with HD you will be needing BLB (HD).

Choppa - hit red, press furious choppin - over 900-950 damage per tick channel , was even using defensive im da biggest tactic.

I realize furious choppin is a longer CD but it does not require building to 5 stacks and waiting on tob proc like WE.

You forget a important point there, WE channel is 3s with a hit every 0.5second and Choppa channel is 5s with a hit every one second.