Tone down the Meta Procs

[lumpi33]

100% agree with OP. The procs proc like made and contribute a huge amount.

Here is a recent example:
https://ibb.co/SrL38sF
4x CoC proc in only 3 seconds

Add a sorc with procs and it's even more nuts.

I think some melee aoe channels should be changed from hitting twice every second to only hit once per second, the procs should have a higher internal cooldown and they shouldn't be affected by damage boosts from tactics or abilities.

There is a huge difference between ranged aoe channels that hit every 2s and cannot be stacked and melee channels that hit ever 0.5s and can be stacked. The latter has way more pressure and procs, plus the better moral drops.

Beside that Id add an experienced rdps player to the balance team because we are back to heavy melee meta. Rdps vs mdps aoe is not balanced at all. Especially the channels that are more important now with the 1.5s gcd.

Good catch OP.

[Zxul]

100% agree with OP. The procs proc like made and contribute a huge amount.

Here is a recent example:
https://ibb.co/SrL38sF
4x CoC proc in only 3 seconds

Add a sorc with procs and it's even more nuts.

I think some melee aoe channels should be changed from hitting twice every second to only hit once per second, the procs should have a higher internal cooldown and they shouldn't be affected by damage boosts from tactics or abilities.

There is a huge difference between ranged aoe channels that hit every 2s and cannot be stacked and melee channels that hit ever 0.5s and can be stacked. The latter has way more pressure and procs, plus the better moral drops.

Beside that Id add an experienced rdps player to the balance team because we are back to heavy melee meta. Rdps vs mdps aoe is not balanced at all. Especially the channels that are more important now with the 1.5s gcd.

Good catch OP.

1. Similar rdps channels- Disastrous Cascade and Annihilate- hit every 1s and not every 2s, and can be stacked just fine.
2. Rdps have in addition a very nice aoe dots which they can stack before going for channels- and which you were hit by in this screenshot, while mdps have very few to non aoe dots.
3. In those 3s you were hit for a total of 5540 dmg after mitigation, out of which 1621 were CoC, or 29% of total dmg, yet its those 29% that were somehow the problem.
4. The reason why those CoC were even hitting that hard was because your spirit resist was debuffed by Glean Magic- a rdps ability- yet are you somehow only blaming procs and mdps channels.
5. "plus the better moral drops"- how exactly Great Fang for example is so much better than Shatter?

[CyunUnderis]

1. Similar rdps channels- Disastrous Cascade and Annihilate- hit every 1s and not every 2s, and can be stacked just fine.

He is talking about AoE channels like Rain of Fire, Phosphorous Shells, Pit of Shades, ... And he is right on the fact that they don't stack (it will be horrible during funnel otherwise).

But some RDPS like BW & Sorc have targeted AoE channels that stacks like Shadow Knives and Fireball Barrage.

@lumpi33, at the moment, I think (I can find Killboard references if needed) that RDPS are still in a good spots with or without procs (better with procs of course). I saw 6/12-men zerg-surfing and being really successful (with Engineer, Shadow Warrior & Bright Wizard). But I can't deny that channels with procs are really strong, maybe more for MDPS because of the tick frequency.

[Zxul]

1. Similar rdps channels- Disastrous Cascade and Annihilate- hit every 1s and not every 2s, and can be stacked just fine.

He is talking about AoE channels like Rain of Fire, Phosphorous Shells, Pit of Shades, ... And he is right on the fact that they don't stack (it will be horrible during funnel otherwise).

Yep and those channels are different to mdps channels- location based instead of player based, different duration, different CD. Rdps channels which are similar to mdps channels- the Disastrous Cascade / Annihilate- like I said stack just fine.

[Absinth]

I think, tactics that increase % procs and damage should not affect groupmates like before the ability rework. And same for % increase damage (from groupmate's gear/tactics ect).

Like this way, the meta proc will be cancel without nerfing dps dok/wp and bw/sorc capacity to deal.

The thing is that they did affect groupmates before ability rework but the ICD was high enough to not make this an issue when you get attacked by people with AOE channels that hit every 0.5s.

[nocturnalguest]

Not a fan of proc meta either and considering the fact that we've been there already on live and here too, this change is meta shift not everyone wanted but deserve, ha. Always been saying that one needs to be careful what wishes for.
However tho, in regards to meta, its like "there must always be a Lich King" (c) nerfing this without another overhaul would dull gameplay.
If revert this, then I feel that proper AoE IHDs of 50% acceseable the same way for both sides with keeping morale cap (and deeply investigate if its to be ever reverted too depending on how TTK is) should be introduced. Overally i believe that from where we were before ability rework there had to be done some proper TTK measurements which are to be taken into consideration and indeep analyze. We've had very balanced state of game i guess, could start from there with aoe ihd and toning down few things or either introducing more features to leave no dead tactic/ability or bugs and then finetunning. But we hit the road already, so no point to derail on this matter eh.
Anyways, its very hard to say not seeing a big picture, maybe this time we will see some proper "The Grand Plan" and could start discussing from that.

P.S. Big credits to Groumpf (havent seen him in a while, think tool definitely worths a sticky post in Addon Section) for creating this perfect combat parsing tool, gathering data atm too. This is some quality feedback, im curious if we ever see some reaction (e.g. way too overtuned choppa selfbuff, but, again, need to track whole picture, choppas place in it and performance, not just 1 skill)

[CyunUnderis]

P.S. Big credits to Groumpf (havent seen him in a while, think tool definitely worths a sticky post in Addon Section) for creating this perfect combat parsing tool, gathering data atm too. This is some quality feedback, im curious if we ever see some reaction (e.g. way too overtuned choppa selfbuff, but, again, need to track whole picture, choppas place in it and performance, not just 1 skill)

Thanks for your post @nocturnalguest.

You are right, this is the software made by Groumpf. A really good tools to parse combat.log. Thanks to him for this hard work.

If I collect enough combat.log from my Choppas, I can maybe make a return about the new skill and how powerful it is at the moment (we are far from a poor ID), but it will be in another thread.

Like you said, I really hope we will have soon some words about the team about the plan they have, just to understand the big picture.

[othr]

If anything slow this thing down, battles have turned into a insta gib bum rush for the healers.

[geezereur]

I think, tactics that increase % procs and damage should not affect groupmates like before the ability rework. And same for % increase damage (from groupmate's gear/tactics ect).

Like this way, the meta proc will be cancel without nerfing dps dok/wp and bw/sorc capacity to deal.

This is the best solution so far.

[nocturnalguest]

If anything slow this thing down, battles have turned into a insta gib bum rush for the healers.

Oh dear, you probably havent seen morales without diminishing return with 24 target cap

This is the best solution so far.

Nerfing them will not fix much. At the moment its "Procs nightmare META era", its not the first time meta is so and shifting it elsewhere requires way more than tunning few skills. Proc meta is pretty passive somewhat dull gameplay which gets pretty boring really quick imo. I would love to see more reasonable player controlled complexity being added (but not like it was e.g. for engi before, rotations were way too complex for average joe to succed hence 1 player outdmg everyone x2 in city while the other struggles to outdmg tanks in more or less same conditions) but thats hard to thinktank and even much harder to execute.

Issue is not make procs stronger/weaker, the real question is what TTK you want in different environment - 6v6, 12v12/18v18, 24v24, 200v200 considering few different layers of gameplay - pug, semi-organised, fully organised&optimized. Should fully organised&optimized 12 kill 12 pug within 7 seconds or 36?
And then you model or figure that desired TTK there are alot of possible options to achieve that. But all those possible options is different topic in itself so if we tone down the meta procs we will slightly increase TTK in each and every a) game environment b) layer of gameplay, but they do differ so big that unbalance will not stop just by that alone and some of environments&layers may feel slightly better gameplay wise but some worse. Is this the goal? If not when what type of environment and layer should be actually affected? Or maybe there is indeed some sweet spot for their values that it can be pretty balanced for everything, i dont know.

The other big question if we even want/need procs to be meta?

Debatable but the more TTK actually is the less entertaining it becomes on average. Take as an example 6v6 match, sustaining is so huge that to execute a go and score a kill you need coordinated effort in narrow time window of 6 people while 6 other (the enemy) tries to deny the go in same amount of limited time. To some it may look like a boring snoozefest (cause you have to press alot of buttons before something crucial happens), to some it feels like most intense game mode (because you need good coordination to make a go or deny a go from enemy from your team). But overally the more TTK the less fun i believe - people like to see effect of what they do, so you press a button with damaging skill and something starts to die, you see HP bar going down and reach dopamine effect being rewarded for things you do, pixels dissapear, fun acheived, if you wouldnt see HP bars going down or it would require pressing your buttons 10000 times instead of 15 then average joe will become bored.