White Lion feedback to 1.4.8. provisional changes

[Lion1986]

Hello.
First of all big thanx to developers for all the hard work they put into this free and awesome project!

I would like to address the provisional changes for White Lions.
For quick info, the recent patch notes for WL are there:

Spoiler:

Bug Fixes

- Baiting Strike, Cleave Limb, Hack - Tooltip corrected to match damage.

Balance Changes

- Blindside - Stat damage multiplier changed from 1 to 0.75 to be correct for abilities with instant damage and a dot component.

- Shattering Blow - Added weapon damage contribution.

- Slashing Blade - reverted cost back to 50 action points.

- Loner - No longer removes cooldown on Pounce.

- Pounce - Reduced base damage but this ability can again critically hit.

- Call War Lion - damage no longer reduced when far away from the player.

- Brutal Pounce - Increased cost to 25 Action Points.

- Echoing Roar - Is now a curse.

- Hack and Slash - Action Point reduction adjusted to -15 Action Points for Slashing Blade and Hack. Armor penetration adjusted to 25% but converted to be additive with Weapon Skill and other armor penetration sources.

- Cleaver - Morale removed.

- Sundering Chop - Reworked to 15% additive armor penetration if attack is done from behind.

Feedback:

+ Stat damage multiplier for Blindside is correct and on par with other abilities in the game
+ Changes for Sundering Chop and Shattering Blow should be correct and again on par with other similar abilities of other classes
+ Change for Echoing Roar (curse) is correct
+ AP cost increase for Brutal Pounce is not that significant and should be correct

- Changes to Slashing Blade: cost 50 action points and to the Hack and Slash tactic: - 15 AP, and changes for armor penetration.
While the armor penetration part of the changes are correct and on par with other abilities the action points changes are massive.
Slashing Blade is essential ability for AOE WL play. While in the current live state (cost 35 AP and the Hack and Slash tactic reduces the AP cost even more by 50%), it is still relative hard to maintain enough action points in fight, because of many AP drain abilities destruction have, even with the support of Knight AP aura, healers AP proc tactics or Ironbreaker AP support and AP potions. With these provisional changes, the AP cost for Slashing Blade will be nearly doubled to the point that the AOE White Lion will very fast end up unable to fight. Please reconsider these changes.

- Loner - No longer removes cooldown on Pounce. Reduced base damage but this ability can again critically hit.
Because of the various kiting abilities Destruction characters have (for example shaman), and the lack of pulling options on the Order side, the repeatable Pounce was very often the only way how to catch the enemy trying to escape from the fight. The reduced damage on the Pounce ability is insignificant. Remember, that the White Lion HAVE TO sacrifice his Lion for this tactic. Please reconsider the ability change to Pounce repeatedly once again.

- Cleaver - Morale removed.
With this change White Lions cannot join the coordinated morale 2 drop with other Order characters. The changes will have ever bigger impact on the meta game, due to general morale changes: Extended the area of effect cap of certain morale effects from 9 to 24 targets.
While the White Lion's mirror - Marauder, keeps his M2: Great Fang (1200 AOE damage 40 feet in front), the White Lions only M2 damage ability would be Flying Axe (1200 damage over 9 seconds 65 feet in front) which is a lot weaker. Considering the various morale drain abilities Destruction have (Marauder,..) this change looks pretty unbalanced. Please reconsider this change.

Thx for reading

order does not have pulls but got millions of snare , stuns and roots. Plus destro lacks escapes. Kiting nowadays is all but impossible if you know your class.

You are comparing a WL which has been top dps since 7 years to marauder which was basically the destro underdog. Needs no more comments...

[wildwindblows]

wl nerfs are nothing compared to mara. Mara nerfed to the ground one more time.

[Ninjagon]

order does not have pulls but got millions of snare , stuns and roots. Plus destro lacks escapes. Kiting nowadays is all but impossible if you know your class.

You are comparing a WL which has been top dps since 7 years to marauder which was basically the destro underdog. Needs no more comments...

Mirror for White Lion's is Marauder. Off course they are not identical. But that is the logic behind comparing these two.
WL - Marauder
Slayer - Choppa
etc.

[Phantasm]

order does not have pulls but got millions of snare , stuns and roots. Plus destro lacks escapes. Kiting nowadays is all but impossible if you know your class.

You are comparing a WL which has been top dps since 7 years to marauder which was basically the destro underdog. Needs no more comments...

Mirror for White Lion's is Marauder. Off course they are not identical. But that is the logic behind comparing these two.
WL - Marauder
Slayer - Choppa
etc.

How can you compare pet class with a stance class?
There are some mirrored skills and morales but that's it. Both are played in a different way.

[githappens]

Mirror to WL is both SH and Mara, same as mirror to SW is SH and Mara .

[wildwindblows]

order does not have pulls but got millions of snare , stuns and roots. Plus destro lacks escapes. Kiting nowadays is all but impossible if you know your class.

You are comparing a WL which has been top dps since 7 years to marauder which was basically the destro underdog. Needs no more comments...

Mirror for White Lion's is Marauder. Off course they are not identical. But that is the logic behind comparing these two.
WL - Marauder
Slayer - Choppa
etc.

than give mara burst pounce and kd. Make mara top dps as wl already do

[Tupan]

order does not have pulls but got millions of snare , stuns and roots. Plus destro lacks escapes. Kiting nowadays is all but impossible if you know your class.

You are comparing a WL which has been top dps since 7 years to marauder which was basically the destro underdog. Needs no more comments...

It's clear you never played on Order once. Destro has much more CC than Order. Dok with snare aura, aoe kd from marauder, gtdc, aoe snare from bg and SH, aoe kb fro SH and so go on.
The biggest Marauder problem is the playerbase that doesn't know the mechanic of the class to take the maximum advantage. Mostly only run monstruosity and when get owned by a WL start to complain about WL being too strong. But I tell you, a good Marauder can destroy a WL with no problem. Marauder is not an easy class to play tho.

White Lions are limited to some abilities only, and without pet, WL can't kd, silence, or fetch. Remember that lion pet can get killed easily and also is very bugged, pathfind broken what makes lion go to opposite side of the target many times, and also get disbanded automatically for no reason. Also, lion pet is the worst pet to summon, since it's only one, have cd 15 secs and can't be summoned instantly like other pets.

Loner tactic isn't that glorious power Destro think it is too. With loner, WL loses all the abilities and buffs from pet and flanking tactic doesn't work with loner tactic on. Remember that goblins have auto-detaunt and auto-run tactics, plus this SHs have Outta My way, Kaboom, and Sticky Squigz, all very strong abilities that help to run out fight and cc. WHat makes Pounce on WL Loner a vital ability. In the other hand, Order doesn't have any of these tactics or abilities Goblins have. So SH and WEs shouldn't have pounce, because it's not needed. Never was! Principally on WEs.
The only advantage of WL Loner is the damage and an easier mechanic. Youd don't have a bugged lion pet to care of nor instances to allow abilities. You don't have aoe snare, cc, aoe pull or kd.

I don't think any of these changes are good at all. And I hope they can review it with more accuracy. SW, WL, Engi, Magus and Mara are being very nerffed without a good reason. The only Marauder fix that is needed is the pull, I don't see other problems with the class. SH for other side, needs much more adjusts than Marauder imo.

[Joshwa70]

We all rerolled slayers.. enjoy.

[wildwindblows]

order does not have pulls but got millions of snare , stuns and roots. Plus destro lacks escapes. Kiting nowadays is all but impossible if you know your class.

You are comparing a WL which has been top dps since 7 years to marauder which was basically the destro underdog. Needs no more comments...

It's clear you never played on Order once. Destro has much more CC than Order. Dok with snare aura, aoe kd from marauder, gtdc, aoe snare from bg and SH, aoe kb fro SH and so go on.
The biggest Marauder problem is the playerbase that doesn't know the mechanic of the class to take the maximum advantage. Mostly only run monstruosity and when get owned by a WL start to complain about WL being too strong. But I tell you, a good Marauder can destroy a WL with no problem. Marauder is not an easy class to play tho.

White Lions are limited to some abilities only, and without pet, WL can't kd, silence, or fetch. Remember that lion pet can get killed easily and also is very bugged, pathfind broken what makes lion go to opposite side of the target many times, and also get disbanded automatically for no reason. Also, lion pet is the worst pet to summon, since it's only one, have cd 15 secs and can't be summoned instantly like other pets.

Loner tactic isn't that glorious power Destro think it is too. With loner, WL loses all the abilities and buffs from pet and flanking tactic doesn't work with loner tactic on. Remember that goblins have auto-detaunt and auto-run tactics, plus this SHs have Outta My way, Kaboom, and Sticky Squigz, all very strong abilities that help to run out fight and cc. WHat makes Pounce on WL Loner a vital ability. In the other hand, Order doesn't have any of these tactics or abilities Goblins have. So SH and WEs shouldn't have pounce, because it's not needed. Never was! Principally on WEs.
The only advantage of WL Loner is the damage and an easier mechanic. Youd don't have a bugged lion pet to care of nor instances to allow abilities. You don't have aoe snare, cc, aoe pull or kd.

I don't think any of these changes are good at all. And I hope they can review it with more accuracy. SW, WL, Engi, Magus and Mara are being very nerffed without a good reason. The only Marauder fix that is needed is the pull, I don't see other problems with the class. SH for other side, needs much more adjusts than Marauder imo.

Marauder is dead since 2018. And now wl will be dead too. Ror is a good game for slayers. At least future will bring new journeys and ror wont be the only option.

[Grumbus]

All I know is that WL are really overpowered, 10 sec gap closer with movespeed on demand from multiple sources, that stuff is really stupid. Every scenario has 4 WLs with loads of healers and tanks that steamroll everything because ranged DPS is simply too frail and weak.

This game is all braindead melee favoritism and there is no skill involved whatsoever.