LOTD balance anyone?

[lumpi33]

.. SW aoe snare moral e.g. makes sure your victims can't escape in addition to other tools like grp crit buff, while other dps can do their job...

And there again you are wrong. mSH can do the same but then jump in spam their AOE and secure kills. So SWs and Engis are just allowed to help with securing kills while their mirrors are able to help and deal damage? Right...

And yeah, Maras shouldn't have that great utility and do close to WL damage either, while WLs don't have all that great tankiness and tools. Again a no-brainer.

[lumpi33]

You gave me no reason/argument to reconsider my stance.

Lol what? Didn't I just explain to you why BWs are plain and simple a lot better than engis/SWs?

[Sulorie]

.. SW aoe snare moral e.g. makes sure your victims can't escape in addition to other tools like grp crit buff, while other dps can do their job...

And there again you are wrong. mSH can do the same but then jump in spam their AOE and secure kills. So SWs and Engis are just allowed to help with securing kills while their mirrors are able to help and deal damage? Right...

Any idea about how many of the SH were melee spec or just assumptions? Furthermore mSH dmg was nerfed over time and isn't impressive. One is ok in warband for cd increase.

[lumpi33]

.. SW aoe snare moral e.g. makes sure your victims can't escape in addition to other tools like grp crit buff, while other dps can do their job...

And there again you are wrong. mSH can do the same but then jump in spam their AOE and secure kills. So SWs and Engis are just allowed to help with securing kills while their mirrors are able to help and deal damage? Right...

Any idea about how many of the SH were melee spec or just assumptions? Furthermore mSH dmg was nerfed over time and isn't impressive. One is ok in warband for cd increase.

No and I just said that they can do it. Nothing about how many did it in LOTD.

mSH is still very good to add more damage on top of the other aoe and increase cd. Something the SW is missing now since the skirmish spec got wrecked.

Looking at the data however they sure did better than their mirrors:

Keileth - SORCERER 40/rr80: 88
Brogn - CHOPPA 40/rr76: 73
Nerfsm - SQUIG_HERDER 40/rr72: 61
Grimskulz - CHOPPA 40/rr86: 38
Tharila - SORCERER 40/rr57: 35
Polemos - CHOPPA 40/rr80: 34
Chimneybounce - SQUIG_HERDER 40/rr78: 32
Tanski - CHOPPA 40/rr73: 29
Garamar - MARAUDER 40/rr84: 28
Myzeri - SORCERER 40/rr79: 28
Naturradler - WITCH_ELF 40/rr75: 26
Ritval - WITCH_ELF 40/rr82: 26
Haojun - SORCERER 40/rr85: 26
Mahackma - CHOPPA 40/rr76: 26
Soulbadguy - MARAUDER 40/rr74: 26
Ganta - SQUIG_HERDER 40/rr73: 25

[normanis]

Today LOTD:




Overall killscore was pretty close, i bet numbers where also similar (if not in order favors) nonless, order lost cuz of terrible organization, groups scattered trying to do their own thing (which is fine IF u being effective in that), which made order push back into defense from start, managed to wipe destro couple times around Quarry and Bitter but once reaching Quay they split and crumble...

Yeah, it was pretty even this time. Destro had only roughly 5% more players.

Total kills: 2951
Order kills: 1479
Destro kills: 1472

Order attackers by career:
IRONBREAKER: 19
WARRIOR_PRIEST: 19
WHITE_LION: 19
WITCH_HUNTER: 19
BRIGHT_WIZARD: 18
KNIGHT: 18
SHADOW_WARRIOR: 17
ENGINEER: 16
RUNE_PRIEST: 15
ARCHMAGE: 14
SLAYER: 14
SWORDMASTER: 10
Total attacking characters: 198

Destro attackers by career:
SHAMAN: 34
CHOPPA: 29
CHOSEN: 21
BLACK_ORC: 20
SQUIG_HERDER: 19
DISCIPLE: 16
SORCERER: 15
MARAUDER: 15
WITCH_ELF: 12
ZEALOT: 11
MAGUS: 10
BLACKGUARD: 8
Total attacking characters: 210

Order kills by character:
Evilspinner - BRIGHT_WIZARD 40/rr81: 113
Morkovka - BRIGHT_WIZARD 40/rr87: 101
Kimba - WHITE_LION 40/rr75: 64
Shutupkid - SLAYER 40/rr77: 60
Finnbarr - WHITE_LION 40/rr81: 55
Solex - WHITE_LION 40/rr77: 52
Rolgrom - SLAYER 40/rr91: 50
Iyvans - WARRIOR_PRIEST 40/rr85: 49
Somebodyelse - WHITE_LION 40/rr49: 48
Hefjor - SLAYER 40/rr82: 47
Soap - SLAYER 40/rr81: 42
Arizer - WHITE_LION 40/rr78: 41
Sosa - BRIGHT_WIZARD 40/rr72: 40
Feronn - WITCH_HUNTER 40/rr81: 40
Lerris - BRIGHT_WIZARD 40/rr83: 27
Ibal - SLAYER 40/rr82: 21
Wamgi - ENGINEER 40/rr76: 21
Contract - SHADOW_WARRIOR 40/rr84: 20
Ikrut - WHITE_LION 40/rr81: 19
Vasta - SHADOW_WARRIOR 40/rr76: 19
Mlaticka - SLAYER 40/rr83: 18
Chasey - BRIGHT_WIZARD 40/rr67: 18
Dishonest - SHADOW_WARRIOR 40/rr67: 17
Ninjab - WHITE_LION 40/rr63: 17
Rope - WITCH_HUNTER 40/rr82: 16
Phenek - BRIGHT_WIZARD 40/rr83: 16
Tornjak - SHADOW_WARRIOR 40/rr84: 15
Sebix - WHITE_LION 40/rr78: 15
Dringus - SHADOW_WARRIOR 40/rr82: 14
Brooti - SLAYER 40/rr85: 14
Bayblade - WHITE_LION 40/rr72: 13
Easymode - WITCH_HUNTER 40/rr68: 13
Iktus - SHADOW_WARRIOR 40/rr76: 13
Allexandra - WHITE_LION 40/rr51: 13
Momekic - WITCH_HUNTER 40/rr84: 12
Thordred - SLAYER 40/rr70: 11
Aarwhin - SHADOW_WARRIOR 40/rr80: 11
Bunssenburner - BRIGHT_WIZARD 40/rr82: 10
Rench - ENGINEER 40/rr71: 10
Floomsy - WHITE_LION 40/rr69: 10
Oathrapier - WITCH_HUNTER 40/rr61: 9
Rorhi - SLAYER 40/rr87: 9
Hackarn - WHITE_LION 40/rr77: 9
Agomaxontas - SHADOW_WARRIOR 40/rr68: 8
Steelballz - SLAYER 40/rr71: 8
Zuuri - WHITE_LION 40/rr73: 8
Macsnipe - ENGINEER 40/rr79: 7
Salik - SLAYER 40/rr73: 7
Delivery - SHADOW_WARRIOR 40/rr82: 7
Ssalogel - SHADOW_WARRIOR 40/rr55: 7
Cogworth - ENGINEER 40/rr88: 6
Bombist - ENGINEER 40/rr75: 6
Amranol - BRIGHT_WIZARD 40/rr78: 6
Exolyseurwl - WHITE_LION 40/rr82: 6
Pozor - WITCH_HUNTER 40/rr74: 6
Rogmor - WITCH_HUNTER 40/rr65: 6
Stirky - BRIGHT_WIZARD 40/rr69: 6
Cyema - SHADOW_WARRIOR 40/rr80: 6
Zeri - BRIGHT_WIZARD 40/rr80: 6
Culpe - WITCH_HUNTER 40/rr64: 5
Kaspn - WITCH_HUNTER 40/rr83: 5
Ilussurm - SHADOW_WARRIOR 40/rr43: 5
Nomnomed - BRIGHT_WIZARD 40/rr43: 5
Crematoria - BRIGHT_WIZARD 40/rr74: 5
Lanieth - SHADOW_WARRIOR 40/rr59: 5
Dhodhoa - SWORDMASTER 40/rr78: 5
Connington - KNIGHT 40/rr70: 5
Foenomenal - WITCH_HUNTER 40/rr84: 5
Helos - WITCH_HUNTER 40/rr73: 5
Tulia - WITCH_HUNTER 40/rr64: 4
Kahulli - ARCHMAGE 40/rr87: 4
Ainiel - WHITE_LION 40/rr51: 4
Ishktar - SHADOW_WARRIOR 40/rr58: 4
Ojy - SLAYER 40/rr56: 4
Lodda - BRIGHT_WIZARD 40/rr83: 4
Vitisus - KNIGHT 40/rr77: 3
Gunrin - ENGINEER 40/rr61: 3
Gunfu - ENGINEER 40/rr78: 3
Dandra - SWORDMASTER 40/rr82: 3
Abazy - ENGINEER 40/rr67: 3
Alycie - WARRIOR_PRIEST 40/rr81: 3
Utka - ENGINEER 40/rr84: 3
Inspecteur - WITCH_HUNTER 40/rr63: 3
Blackearth - SWORDMASTER 40/rr45: 3
Maxpain - ARCHMAGE 40/rr83: 3
Jirou - WHITE_LION 40/rr81: 3
Brehus - BRIGHT_WIZARD 40/rr83: 2
Shotnica - SHADOW_WARRIOR 40/rr51: 2
Akmep - WITCH_HUNTER 40/rr78: 2
Champis - ARCHMAGE 40/rr83: 2
Noara - ARCHMAGE 40/rr73: 2
Lastbreathing - ARCHMAGE 40/rr67: 2
Bigbadaboom - BRIGHT_WIZARD 40/rr71: 2
Stoumpos - IRONBREAKER 40/rr79: 2
Dimrond - ENGINEER 40/rr71: 2
Ehrenril - WHITE_LION 40/rr50: 1
Gennero - KNIGHT 40/rr83: 1
Deawuur - ENGINEER 40/rr52: 1
Brothermanbill - RUNE_PRIEST 40/rr87: 1
Kolovar - BRIGHT_WIZARD 40/rr86: 1
Triktrak - IRONBREAKER 40/rr74: 1
Macoe - SLAYER 40/rr79: 1
Tundro - IRONBREAKER 40/rr58: 1
Puttypower - WHITE_LION 40/rr81: 1
Peacmaker - IRONBREAKER 40/rr77: 1
Dwahlibaba - ENGINEER 40/rr46: 1
Ruxbin - IRONBREAKER 40/rr85: 1
Novik - ENGINEER 40/rr75: 1
Macka - WITCH_HUNTER 40/rr63: 1
Arvodaen - SWORDMASTER 40/rr81: 1
Hopkens - WITCH_HUNTER 40/rr72: 1

Destro kills by character:
Keileth - SORCERER 40/rr80: 88
Brogn - CHOPPA 40/rr76: 73
Nerfsm - SQUIG_HERDER 40/rr72: 61
Grimskulz - CHOPPA 40/rr86: 38
Tharila - SORCERER 40/rr57: 35
Polemos - CHOPPA 40/rr80: 34
Chimneybounce - SQUIG_HERDER 40/rr78: 32
Tanski - CHOPPA 40/rr73: 29
Garamar - MARAUDER 40/rr84: 28
Myzeri - SORCERER 40/rr79: 28
Naturradler - WITCH_ELF 40/rr75: 26
Ritval - WITCH_ELF 40/rr82: 26
Haojun - SORCERER 40/rr85: 26
Mahackma - CHOPPA 40/rr76: 26
Soulbadguy - MARAUDER 40/rr74: 26
Ganta - SQUIG_HERDER 40/rr73: 25
Khaled - CHOPPA 40/rr84: 24
Sirzero - MARAUDER 40/rr88: 23
Shaeagmus - CHOPPA 40/rr80: 21
Wop - SHAMAN 40/rr69: 20
Runty - SQUIG_HERDER 40/rr71: 20
Sheet - SQUIG_HERDER 40/rr64: 18
Metalface - CHOPPA 40/rr79: 18
Whirlybird - CHOPPA 40/rr77: 18
Leorika - WITCH_ELF 40/rr83: 17
Koprowski - SQUIG_HERDER 40/rr66: 17
Dolphlundgren - SORCERER 40/rr82: 17
Gosas - MARAUDER 40/rr77: 17
Annuki - SORCERER 40/rr89: 17
Fro - WITCH_ELF 40/rr81: 16
Katzu - MARAUDER 40/rr60: 16
Greenlion - SQUIG_HERDER 40/rr55: 16
Splint - MARAUDER 40/rr74: 16
Sicily - SORCERER 40/rr61: 15
Chpoker - SQUIG_HERDER 40/rr83: 15
Inesalba - SHAMAN 40/rr83: 15
Darkdeusy - WITCH_ELF 40/rr69: 15
Rusentaja - MARAUDER 40/rr83: 14
Memory - CHOPPA 40/rr62: 14
Gloub - SQUIG_HERDER 40/rr81: 14
Meetwad - SQUIG_HERDER 40/rr82: 13
Vilresh - WITCH_ELF 40/rr77: 13
Valkyrie - WITCH_ELF 40/rr81: 12
Xermi - MARAUDER 40/rr66: 12
Nekslasha - CHOPPA 40/rr58: 12
Brutality - CHOPPA 40/rr83: 12
Collapse - MAGUS 40/rr42: 12
Wulfrikz - MARAUDER 40/rr81: 11
Ald - MARAUDER 40/rr75: 11
Stumpnklatscha - SQUIG_HERDER 40/rr79: 11
Annoyingthing - SQUIG_HERDER 40/rr80: 11
Schwartzfaust - BLACK_ORC 40/rr82: 10
Ebesneeza - SQUIG_HERDER 40/rr68: 10
Romaina - WITCH_ELF 40/rr68: 10
Zorbaxxx - SQUIG_HERDER 40/rr88: 9
Elonoora - SORCERER 40/rr82: 9
Snikkgrot - SQUIG_HERDER 40/rr52: 9
Bloodfang - SQUIG_HERDER 40/rr60: 8
Lokbane - MAGUS 40/rr76: 8
Dabbartsorc - SORCERER 40/rr39: 8
Endtimer - CHOSEN 40/rr83: 8
Roxarta - SORCERER 40/rr45: 8
Teefz - SQUIG_HERDER 40/rr90: 8
Dunkellicht - SORCERER 40/rr83: 7
Noxturne - CHOPPA 40/rr71: 7
Saxonn - BLACK_ORC 40/rr88: 7
Blood - CHOSEN 40/rr76: 7
Splif - SHAMAN 40/rr83: 7
Aoefarmer - MAGUS 40/rr66: 7
Dushnila - SHAMAN 40/rr69: 7
Mazenda - MAGUS 40/rr67: 7
Krimskull - CHOPPA 40/rr82: 7
Rotznischl - SQUIG_HERDER 40/rr80: 7
Kanath - CHOPPA 40/rr80: 7
Stortsettmoste - CHOPPA 40/rr54: 6
Greenbeans - SHAMAN 40/rr58: 6
Razgrom - BLACK_ORC 40/rr80: 6
Ebivonlebsia - MARAUDER 40/rr77: 6
Reverae - MAGUS 40/rr65: 6
Keraza - MARAUDER 40/rr79: 6
Wazgag - CHOPPA 40/rr54: 6
Hacklbaerli - CHOPPA 40/rr66: 5
Wuzok - BLACK_ORC 40/rr81: 5
Fluf - BLACK_ORC 40/rr92: 5
Tergyt - SQUIG_HERDER 40/rr63: 5
Darkprince - MAGUS 40/rr85: 5
Jadecobra - WITCH_ELF 40/rr81: 4
Avada - SHAMAN 40/rr61: 4
Cribz - CHOPPA 40/rr61: 4
Arkoudamaliari - MARAUDER 40/rr41: 4
Razer - WITCH_ELF 40/rr69: 4
Marcosis - BLACK_ORC 40/rr56: 3
Morales - CHOPPA 40/rr66: 3
Braagh - CHOPPA 40/rr50: 3
Chogal - CHOPPA 40/rr50: 3
Hexblade - CHOPPA 40/rr56: 2
Zapzap - WITCH_ELF 40/rr60: 2
Lartis - CHOSEN 40/rr53: 2
Rumbling - BLACK_ORC 40/rr90: 2
Tazo - DISCIPLE 40/rr83: 2
Senguin - BLACKGUARD 40/rr66: 2
Gdamn - SHAMAN 40/rr92: 2
Pob - SHAMAN 40/rr62: 2
Tcharcoal - MAGUS 40/rr78: 2
Kaylor - MARAUDER 40/rr62: 2
Llaraa - BLACKGUARD 40/rr82: 2
Sabtor - CHOPPA 40/rr82: 2
Bazgob - SHAMAN 40/rr87: 2
Yttebsbroo - CHOSEN 40/rr78: 2
Besatt - BLACKGUARD 40/rr71: 2
Smorg - SHAMAN 40/rr83: 1
Khazavaal - CHOSEN 40/rr44: 1
Kirpo - BLACKGUARD 40/rr79: 1
Deathgrowl - BLACK_ORC 40/rr83: 1
Morines - SORCERER 40/rr68: 1
Stratocaster - SORCERER 40/rr76: 1
Iknoz - BLACK_ORC 40/rr73: 1
Aemos - MAGUS 40/rr46: 1
Mournblade - DISCIPLE 40/rr73: 1
Reldon - BLACKGUARD 40/rr75: 1
Click - ZEALOT 40/rr77: 1
Pinyin - MAGUS 40/rr56: 1
Plasticpadding - CHOSEN 40/rr84: 1
Topork - CHOPPA 40/rr83: 1
Fearwing - BLACKGUARD 40/rr63: 1
Jiroh - SHAMAN 40/rr79: 1
Oomiestompa - BLACK_ORC 40/rr83: 1

Order kills by guild:
Nightmare: 262
Oath: 245
SMASH: 120
Forgotten: 94
Bene Tleilax: 79
NO_GUILD: 78
Morituri: 70
PokerFace: 64
Gimle: 55
LNM: 47
Beaver: 40
HELLenes: 25
Tercio de Estalia: 24
The Unlikely Plan: 21
Shadows of Divinity: 20
Order Biased: 19
Seventh Legion: 19
CNTK: 18
Juggernaut: 15
TouchMyBaIalaika: 13
Warriors of the Runes: 13
A Few Good Men: 12
Ethics: 11
Salt Factory: 11
HardLine: 9
Familjen: 9
Clan Barakdum: 7
Falkenrath: 6
Les Dragons du Cormyr: 6
Montague: 6
Mungeon Pride: 6
Vae Victis Granarc: 5
Ithilmar's Chosen: 5
Altdorf War College: 5
DURAZ TARAG: 5
Ekso: 5
Bitterstone Thunderers: 4
Set Sail for Fail: 4
- Light Nords -: 3
Pax Mortis II: 3
Fluffy Samurais: 3
Twierdza: 3
Bastards: 2
WAR-Invasion: 2
Gladiadores: 2
Genei Ryodan: 2
Blood Faith And Fire: 1
Adeptus Custodes: 1

Destro kills by guild:
Hand of Blood: 180
Nugos: 151
NO_GUILD: 99
FMJ: 74
just respawn: 67
Da Freebootaz: 66
TUP: 62
Omega: 49
The Blood Moon: 43
Terminus Est: 41
The Misfits: 38
KAZ: 38
Spetznobz: 36
Guerra: 32
BALTIKA: 31
VII: 30
Wildly lnappropriate: 28
Parasites: 27
Phalanx: 26
BLACK HORROR: 26
Dark Panda: 18
Do it For Pumpkin: 18
Todesengel: 18
Unfortunate Timing: 18
Gummy Bears of Doom: 17
NGE: 17
NOCTURNE: 17
Odyssey: 16
Myth Corporation: 16
Black Toof Clan: 16
Path of Wreckage: 15
Mourne: 13
Fallen Legion: 11
Dark Days: 11
Tzeentch and Chong: 11
beWARe: 8
The Damned: 8
Thank god am pretty: 8
Exodus: 8
Black Legion: 7
Kult Of Squigmar: 7
V I K I N G S: 7
Sigmar Digmar: 6
Legion of Doom: 5
MP: 5
SPACEBALLS: 5
Agony: 4
Dark Brotherhood: 4
Da fat squigs: 3
The Forces of Destruction: 2
Nazgul: 2
The Unstable Equation: 2
Fog of Waaagh: 1
Kar Khadath Regiment: 1
Gobbo Club: 1
RigorMortis: 1
Legion Of Perkele: 1


Note: In the Killboard a kill is granted to a character when it has contributed the most damage for killing. It's different from death blows where only the finishing hit matters.

u can see basicly most popular clases and least popular clases. and kills by classes.

[nik89]

This conversation is outside the scope of this forum post....
but very quickly,

Engi in particular does not have the utility to justify having such low damage/contri to kills/kills.

They have a mine and turret kd. mine is great when fleeing. Turret can be useful when fleeing. Using the kd offensively is risky. You put yourself way out of position. Engi does not have a root break, snare break, self-cleanse or (non morale) defensive cd to help with that.

You lose too much viability in dmg if you choose to take utility. There are better options for that. Pierce Defences (pd) only procs on direct dmg like phos. shells (a channel) and blunderbuss(phys dmg). sw and sh have spam-able aoe skils for pd proc.

They are a poor pick for orvr. They are laser focused on being good in funnels. The st spec is a joke compared to other options. For aoe spec you want pure BS, and you want WS for st spec. My (aoe) engi has like 15% armor pen with full offensive sov. SW gets around this with fester and an armor pen tactic. Magus has a good st spec (purely int, magic based) and some more aoe-dmg viability (from lash).
At the highest levels, they can do really well in a funnel, but again a really good BW can compete or outperform.


It's still a lot of fun to play. Dot based specs always are. It's just not "the best" at anything. It also lacks general qol and utility to make up for that.

The trouble with balancing engis is that it's such a popular class. A buff to the aoe spec would have an inordinate effect on the server.
A general rework of engi ST spec could be nice, and some qol changes, but that seems unlikely based on priorities.

At the end of the day though it is a fun class to play.

[Minisynn]

Can you lads fighting over class balance take it to a relevant thread before you get my favourite weekly thread locked

[Asderas27]

Today LOTD:
Overall killscore was pretty close, i bet numbers where also similar (if not in order favors) nonless, order lost cuz of terrible organization, groups scattered trying to do their own thing (which is fine IF u being effective in that), which made order push back into defense from start, managed to wipe destro couple times around Quarry and Bitter but once reaching Quay they split and crumble...

I agree with you this time.
We (Bene) chose a strategy that was not as effective as we had hoped...

Bene and Effective will never exist in same sentence IMHO.
No offense ofc.

[nik89]

Can you lads fighting over class balance take it to a relevant thread before you get my favourite weekly thread locked

I couldn't help throwing in my 2 cents, but you are right. This is entirely irrelevant to the forum post.

[Ninjagon]

Today's LotD was good. Destro won not because of better fights, but because they have experienced ganker squads, which can easy and quickly cap BOs.
The pop balance was maybe even ?