[SM] Any chance being viable in RvR/Sieges with 2H?

[Fenris78]

After some experimentation, I found out 2H SM need both Ether Dance and WW to be satisfying ; you have now good utility and good ST burst. Sadly it require both getting 6pcs Sov, and sacrificing some damage to take both kd and group absorb (you only keep great weapon mastery, but have to drop Balanced Accuracy).

I still see barely any difference in survivability with snb spec, and ED burst is rather useful to finish healers and dps. Still with a k/d of 2, wich means I do twice as much kills than I die, so I guess it's working fine.
(And nonetheless still in the top 3 protection, pretty much everytime).

2H build as I play it is also a very useful tool to go into keep funnels (under wods) before jumping on stairs bumping every caster around.
This ability alone makes the build strong to my taste, and I'm very much enjoying it .

[Martok]

When they made Shieldmaster viable they destroyed Swordmaster. Sorry to be a downer but the SM niche of DPS tank has been a myth for a while now.

Oh noes! Say it ain't so Joe! Say it ain't so! All that fun I had playing this game as a two-hand Swordmaster obliterated! All just a myth I tells ya, just like the Chupacabra or Bigfoot, all just a myth! Deleting my account, smashing my computer and burning down my house in three, two, one...


Obviously, and with all due respect, of course, I disagree with your proclamation.


Shieldmaster is the expected play-style, the demanded play-style, if you want to hang out with the cooooooool-kids and get the highest also-ran protection number and thus be considered a good-little drone. However if you want to actually enjoy the game I state again: free yourself. Frak all that noise, play two-hand SM, Fight The Power! and on occasion you will still make City Champ Status thus proving the cooooool-kids wrong.



Click here to watch on YouTube


And yes, I admit, a bit of shameless self-promotion for my Warhammer videos however if I don't do it who will. Watch my Twitch Stream.

[BluIzLucky]

2H SM brings nothing to warband play that can't be provided (and better) by a Shieldmaster except about 30 points of stat steal. The "damage" is not significant.

And it is questionable if it brings anything to 6 man.

When they made Shieldmaster viable they destroyed Swordmaster. Sorry to be a downer but the SM niche of DPS tank has been a myth for a while now.

I feel what you are saying, but it only applies to the very top, e.g. BIS 24 v 24 and top ranked, where only the optimal is viable.
Rest of the 99% of content 2H SM is both more fun and plenty viable.

Spoiler:

After some experimentation, I found out 2H SM need both Ether Dance and WW to be satisfying ; you have now good utility and good ST burst. Sadly it require both getting 6pcs Sov, and sacrificing some damage to take both kd and group absorb (you only keep great weapon mastery, but have to drop Balanced Accuracy).

I still see barely any difference in survivability with snb spec, and ED burst is rather useful to finish healers and dps. Still with a k/d of 2, wich means I do twice as much kills than I die, so I guess it's working fine.
(And nonetheless still in the top 3 protection, pretty much everytime).

2H build as I play it is also a very useful tool to go into keep funnels (under wods) before jumping on stairs bumping every caster around.
This ability alone makes the build strong to my taste, and I'm very much enjoying it .

Yep, 6p off sov should be first sov set you get on SM (of course unless you just like being a tanly shieldmaster). That being said, WW + ED is still a fairly niche build, you trade +20% dmg for it so your team better make up for it. It is very solid in ranked though and pugging around in orvr

[Fenris78]

Yep, 6p off sov should be first sov set you get on SM (of course unless you just like being a tanly shieldmaster). That being said, WW + ED is still a fairly niche build, you trade +20% dmg for it so your team better make up for it. It is very solid in ranked though

Agreed, the def set will not make that of a difference (more toughness than wounds, block instead of parry, while parry got more or equal value because of guard and WoDS).

About the damage loss, if you're speakin about Balanced accuracy, it's far from a 20% damage loss, but more about 5% for improved stance and 10% in perfect ; assuming you hit everytime and do full rotation, its an average of 5% more damage (a tad more if you're spamming ED of course), and that can be countered by anticrit (while flat damage increase and strikethrough wont).

The taunt + GWM + Discerning offense will make up for the difference anyway, and by miles.

Yes in ranked you'll drop WW or group absorb to pick and get max crit build, but you'll make concessions about resistance too.

Anyway in small scale or big battles, I find my 2H build very effective, both damaging and protecting allies, with very good tools for the group. Pretty much a swiss knife at this point. I only miss Vaul's buffer and raking talons, but guess we cannot have best of two worlds, and it fits me that way, each build being perfectly viable and well fitted in the actual meta.

I cannot complain SM being lackluster in some areas, except for 2 things : having more control on bump (changing gusting winds from 360° to 180° could be very beneficial for a start), and a comparable parry buff to chosen (at least 10s could make the skill remotely worthy to cast).

[Caduceus]

Whenever you are bringing a 2H tank into a warband, the idea is to sacrifice some survivability for some damage (note: the damage doesn't need to be on par with pure DPS classes, because you still bring a lot of utility to the table that every tank gets by default).

If you, and your warband leader, are looking to get more damage and do not mind sacrificing some survivability for that, 2H tank is a fine option.

[BluIzLucky]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Yep, 6p off sov should be first sov set you get on SM (of course unless you just like being a tanly shieldmaster). That being said, WW + ED is still a fairly niche build, you trade +20% dmg for it so your team better make up for it. It is very solid in ranked though

Agreed, the def set will not make that of a difference (more toughness than wounds, block instead of parry, while parry got more or equal value because of guard and WoDS).

About the damage loss, if you're speakin about Balanced accuracy, it's far from a 20% damage loss, but more about 5% for improved stance and 10% in perfect ; assuming you hit everytime and do full rotation, its an average of 5% more damage (a tad more if you're spamming ED of course), and that can be countered by anticrit (while flat damage increase and strikethrough wont).

The taunt + GWM + Discerning offense will make up for the difference anyway, and by miles.

Yes in ranked you'll drop WW or group absorb to pick and get max crit build, but you'll make concessions about resistance too.

Anyway in small scale or big battles, I find my 2H build very effective, both damaging and protecting allies, with very good tools for the group. Pretty much a swiss knife at this point. I only miss Vaul's buffer and raking talons, but guess we cannot have best of two worlds, and it fits me that way, each build being perfectly viable and well fitted in the actual meta.

I cannot complain SM being lackluster in some areas, except for 2 things : having more control on bump (changing gusting winds from 360° to 180° could be very beneficial for a start), and a comparable parry buff to chosen (at least 10s could make the skill remotely worthy to cast).

You get about 10% loss from BA, then another 10% from gear, and probably a fair amount more as you'll be diverting from DPS rotations, but of course that's optional and just a sign of having more options to deal with different situations.

I was gonna edit my previous reply to say 6p off sov actually isn't that niche, just niche in premade 6 man / ST city groups, in SC I prefer to go full DPS, and rarely go pug wb in orvr after getting sov, so the build seemed more niche than it actually is, to me because of my playstyle

[Laoch74]

Back to my original question,before it got sidetracked abit. When running a defensive 2H SM is there a rotation I should be using,according to which balance
I'm using?

[Aethilmar]

Back to my original question,before it got sidetracked abit. When running a defensive 2H SM is there a rotation I should be using,according to which balance
I'm using?

Since you said you are "defensive" I assume you don't have ED but do have WW.

If so, then it is SS, EF (or WoH), WW -> PoH, EF (or WoH), DS or DT, rinse and repeat until WW up again.

WW gives you 5 second PoH in the rotation (and 5 second GW if you like handing out immunities).

[Laoch74]

Would CW be in that rotation somewhere?

[Fenris78]

Would CW be in that rotation somewhere?

There is no "perfect rotation" to use everytime, it solely depends on who you are hitting and the situation you are in. SM got many specialized tools against various classes/archetypes, but some are more effective against specific class, ie. Dazzling strike will be more effective against zealot, less against shaman, and barely do anything against DoK.

Use accordingly, be careful for immunities (buffhead/aura are your friends) to use your only kd effectively, but you have many things to do outside of your rotation (taunt, challenge, guard swap).

Be sure to start with group absorb when available, try to launch your taunt/challenge under Whispering Wind to benefit from it (not many skills are), snare/kd fleeing enemies, debuff spirit and apply blurring shock when multiple dps are hitting your target, etc.

Also dont forget to use Dragon's Talon if you are the only one to hit a heavy dps (sorc, choppa for instance), but its especially useful with Raking talon tactic (you cannot go left tree at all with this build).

Use enemy addon to mark your teammates getting hit by sorc's Word of Pain, and Aura on yourself (enable timers on both), to activate your group absorb on the last second, effectively neutering a big chunck of the final hit.

You dont have to constantly "refresh" debuffs, Eagle's Flight is barely worth a gcd, and without Ether Dance you wont have any real burst. So you job will be limited to casting WW, group absorb, spirit debuff, and a final debuff of your choosing depending on the situation.
So try to adapt over the situation, and learn to use Sudden Shift to quickly get on the appropriate stance when you need it (SS will not trigger a gcd).

When under heavy pressure, use Wall of Darting Steel but be aware anything interrupting the channelling can get you killed, even for a second if you are heavily focused (it also can waste a big chunk of incoming fire since enemy think you are an easy target with 2H - use it to your advantage = every damage you avoid is spared from your team).