Shaman/AM balance - in relation to recent BO changes

[Budzisz]

Shaman can not compete with the other healers on any level, without Fury of Da Green. Chop Fasta alone, does not allow this skill to be used properly. As fury has only 5-7 effective casts before you need to reuse regular heals/rehot (And this is only when you are actually pressured, It is very easy to imagine how if this misses the pressure moment - you cannot use FoDG to any capacity). This means that for half of the time CF is on - shaman will not be using it and the long CD time of this ability combined with the fact you only now have 1 class that can even provide it, FoDG will not be worth speccing. BOs WAAAGH had the perfect synergy with it. This means that, current changes will buff AMs, while nerfing shams - which already were underperfoming in minds of many players. Not being able to use FoDG, without cooldown - affects not only the heal potential (as in just rough numbers), but changes the whole gameplay as:
- You do not utilize your class mechanic anymore (the only offensive healing spell was FoTG)
- Without being able to use FoDG empowered by heals - you can no longer move while aoe healing - making you either not heal, or stand and heal and be a target.
- The extra hot apllications on Ey, quit bleeding - is very solid and a change the class needed for a while - as all the other heals have aoe hot capacity.
- Even before the BO nerf, shaman was VERY dependant on other classes to help him out - and this was the only thing that let him compete with the other healers.
- As a solution I suggest giving him and AM a seperate CD reducing ability - just for himself. lets say 10s CD red with 20 or 30 s CD. You could consider making it speccable in path of da green tree - in a way that would e.g. not allow me to spec both CD red and DSU e.g. (If you need some kind of a draw back - but still this would be very much the same as just having a BO in a group pre nerf):
- this would fix most issues with the classes without changing much for anyone else.
- It would make the shaman/AM self sufficient, as well as allow him to utilize his class mechanic.
Please consider this change. Right now, shaman will be only used for sticky feetz and insta res - and this cannot be considered Balanced.

[teiloh]

It's a good point on how the timing lines up with FOTD rotations. I think now Sham will prob optimize by using up 5 Mork to FODG spam, and then alternate group heal/AOE hot between casts for the remainder of the ability.

[Nekkma]

Hopefully both classes get some much needed attention to their actual healingtrees instead of on 13pt ability in a oftree.

[Auzor]

The Shaman & Archmage, are a class where given their class mechanic, I'd like to see a complete change to the trees themselves. But this will be very, very difficult to achieve.

The class mechanic, is to give a bonus to using Mork/Gork, and Force/Tranquility.
So, the idea is to alternate.
Yet... you have tree A for for heal, B for dmg, and C for... mostly 'dmg' (Gork/Force using abilities).

I think it'd be far more interesting, to change the classes, so that they do get dmg/heal bonus from both Willpower & Intelligence, all at the same time.
Example:
Tree A does dmg shields & buffs, plus single-target direct dmg.
Tree B gives HoT, single target direct heals, debuffs, and AoE dmg.
Tree C gives AoE heals, and DoT (inc lifetap?) effects.
The aim being, that each tree has some insta-cast, some channeled, and some longer cast time abilities. But, varied between dmg, buff/debuff & heals. Each tree should be close in the amount of abilities that give Mork/Gork or Force/Tranquility.

Then, the mechanic:
if you use 5 Gork/Mork Force/Tranquility, you end up at 3 stacks of the opposing type.
If you use 3, you end up at 1.
Extra of gcd ability: next spell, does not consume your stacks. 40s? cooldown. So you can do 2 5-stack casts in a row.

That would end up meaning, Archmage/Shaman would have to be below 'pure' healers; and indeed, below 'pure' damage dealers.
But, they'd have a more functioning class mechanic (imo), and be 'weaving' magic; some dmg, some healing, alternating.

[utharge]

The casted group and single target heals are too slow and too expensive. More willpower does almost nothing to hots and only a little to casted heals.

I'd love to see something like "Spreadheal" from Dark Age of Camelot. The more people you had in the group the stronger it was and it was healing primarily those in need of a heal. So in a group of 8 with only a few damaged players it was pretty strong. It was basically an intelligent and improved group heal.

Another thing that would be awesome would be a way to convert the mechanic points. E.g. you have healed 5 times, then you could convert it and have 5 times more powerful heals.

[Nekkma]

I like how both classes play and do not want any "overhaul of the mechanic" to change that. I already mildly dislike the implementation of eov/fodg. If either of the classes is underperforming the best path is to make small adjustments of existing skills, e.g. increase DSU heal by 5 % or something similar and then evaluate the effects of the change before doing anything more.

I would like the healers to have different focus (and balanced accordingly). Like this:
Dok/wp - masters of group healing - weak st healing
Shaman/am - masters of st healing - weak group healing
Zealot/rp - utility healer, good, but not great, at both group and single target

[BluIzLucky]

I don't think you can say that shamans definitely has a worse EoV now, but you could argue they are not miles ahead anymore.
WW you can easily miss 40-50% of the window, worst case with choppa is 25%.
Your scenario could be alleviated by telling your choppa there's a lot a burst aoe pressure, hold your cdr until called for, doing that shamans are still ahead since you have a 100% bigger window..

And since you can now hot half a wb and 2x hot on key targets with fodg in between.. you are gonna be fine mobility-wise and probably heal wise even without cdr

[NSKaneda]

Spoiler:

The Shaman & Archmage, are a class where given their class mechanic, I'd like to see a complete change to the trees themselves. But this will be very, very difficult to achieve.

The class mechanic, is to give a bonus to using Mork/Gork, and Force/Tranquility.
So, the idea is to alternate.
Yet... you have tree A for for heal, B for dmg, and C for... mostly 'dmg' (Gork/Force using abilities).

I think it'd be far more interesting, to change the classes, so that they do get dmg/heal bonus from both Willpower & Intelligence, all at the same time.
Example:
Tree A does dmg shields & buffs, plus single-target direct dmg.
Tree B gives HoT, single target direct heals, debuffs, and AoE dmg.
Tree C gives AoE heals, and DoT (inc lifetap?) effects.
The aim being, that each tree has some insta-cast, some channeled, and some longer cast time abilities. But, varied between dmg, buff/debuff & heals. Each tree should be close in the amount of abilities that give Mork/Gork or Force/Tranquility.

Then, the mechanic:
if you use 5 Gork/Mork Force/Tranquility, you end up at 3 stacks of the opposing type.
If you use 3, you end up at 1.
Extra of gcd ability: next spell, does not consume your stacks. 40s? cooldown. So you can do 2 5-stack casts in a row.

That would end up meaning, Archmage/Shaman would have to be below 'pure' healers; and indeed, below 'pure' damage dealers.
But, they'd have a more functioning class mechanic (imo), and be 'weaving' magic; some dmg, some healing, alternating.

This sounds like a work-around RoR lifetaps nerf (tied with mechanic rework few years back) - and reverting that nerf would fix the issue you're writing about. And while I like the idea of getting stacks of dmg/effects on top of everything AM/SHM does (and their skills already have tons of effects - buffs, debuffs, cc and so on) I'm afraid it would make them OP beyond guardian lion levels. Still, making lifetaps crit again would definitely make dps healing/alternating worth it - as well as re-introducing hybrid menace to the lakes... Yeah, afair Wargrimnir has some strong opinions about this

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I don't agree with FotG being a must for battle shamans but that boils down to preferred playstyle.

[havartii]

First they nerfed the armor tallies they relied on (survivability) Then they nerfed Run Away (survivability) Then they nerfed AP drain (survivability) Nerfed moral pump (very niche group build that requires 2 tactic slots) Nerfed CD reducer (FOG) If your a Shaman main.. you may as well just give up. All that nerf and they give you a decent buff to your main hot but does nothing to remedy everything they have taken from them. I'm done, who wants my stuff?

[Kurama]

First they nerfed the armor tallies they relied on (survivability) Then they nerfed Run Away (survivability) Then they nerfed AP drain (survivability) Nerfed moral pump (very niche group build that requires 2 tactic slots) Nerfed CD reducer (FOG) If your a Shaman main.. you may as well just give up. All that nerf and they give you a decent buff to your main hot but does nothing to remedy everything they have taken from them. I'm done, who wants my stuff?

I'll take you gold