2h Tank guard

[detrap]

2h was never tankier than SnB.

Your logic is fundamentally flawed. Even assuming that 2h was tanking more guard damage than SnB due to 100% avoidance, you forget that is not the only source of damage taken by tanks and they do get hit eventually and 2h tanks would melt to ranged pressure.

You also forget that many defensive abilities are tied to only shield. And I believe 2h tanks cant maintain 100% uptime on avoidance enhancers.

Principally, I believe guard damage taken should be same as the original source (magical/ranged/melee) rather than just physical melee. It just makes sense.

You never played an SM then?

Yes, have you?

What is your point?

2h SM's did a better job guarding champs as a non champ, better than any snb tank could on order. Because 90%-100% parry (over 200% every few seconds) > than a tank with around 35% block and parry

For guard damage, parry % similar to this is better than most snb tanks.

Since guard damage now requires us to dodge/disrupt, 2h tanks cant get away with mitigating the amount of guard damage they used to. Which is fair.

[lyncher12]

fair how? seems like that was the start of catering to rdps, something that didn't necessarily need to happen.

[abezverkhiy]

This change affects all tanks but as an SnB tank I barely noticed it because I have high block and it saves me nicely. And I have all avoidance stats maxed up through renown and I never really liked short parry buffs because they are too short. So for those hits that pass through my defences and cause harm I have healers and IB self-heal. So I am cool with the change as an SnB. Well, it became a bit harder so what? Only a bit.

But when I respecced 2h IB I felt the change! I was melting like a candle while guarding despite my parry was about 60-70! Parry is no longer a king of the hill for guarding and guarding by 2h is another way to die. Feel sorry for 2h tanks but value of them dropped and they can remove guard from their action bars.

So what now? 2h tanks are still defensive, can deal some damage but no more guarding. Not that they really wanted to since they dropped their shields voluntary. By means of the patch they have now been made a selfish prick class. Now it's official.

[sharpblader]

You never played an SM then?

Yes, have you?

What is your point?

2h SM's did a better job guarding champs as a non champ, better than any snb tank could on order. Because 90%-100% parry (over 200% every few seconds) > than a tank with around 35% block and parry

For guard damage, parry % similar to this is better than most snb tanks.

Since guard damage now requires us to dodge/disrupt, 2h tanks cant get away with mitigating the amount of guard damage they used to. Which is fair.

It seems that either you're choosing your words poorly or only talking theoretically.

I'm agreeing with what you say to conclude. I believe it is fair and makes sense how it's working now.

What I am debating is that you speak about all tanks being tankier as 2h as compared to SnB while citing only SM as an example. Which 2h tanks have you played to state this I'm genuinely curious.

Now you say that they guard more effectively. How? Your guardee will take half damage whether youre running 2h, SnB or just naked.

[detrap]

Yes, have you?

What is your point?

2h SM's did a better job guarding champs as a non champ, better than any snb tank could on order. Because 90%-100% parry (over 200% every few seconds) > than a tank with around 35% block and parry

For guard damage, parry % similar to this is better than most snb tanks.

Since guard damage now requires us to dodge/disrupt, 2h tanks cant get away with mitigating the amount of guard damage they used to. Which is fair.

It seems that either you're choosing your words poorly or only talking theoretically.

I'm agreeing with what you say to conclude. I believe it is fair and makes sense how it's working now.

What I am debating is that you speak about all tanks being tankier as 2h as compared to SnB while citing only SM as an example. Which 2h tanks have you played to state this I'm genuinely curious.

Now you say that they guard more effectively. How? Your guardee will take half damage whether youre running 2h, SnB or just naked.

Never said all tanks being tankier. I said tanks can be equal to or better at taking guard damage with a 2h build before the changes. Any tank that can PvE as a 2h for example could get away with it in warband vs warband fights. Examples are SM/Chosen/BG/IB. Any tank that can get high amounts of parry was getting away with doing a lot more damage than a snb tank whilst surviving just as well, because in city fights for example, tanks are targeted last regardless they are 2h or snb.

The more you parry the guard damage, the less the healers need to heal you and they can focus heal/morale the dps you are guarding. With the new changes, 2h tanks will also put a strain on their healers because of the increased amount of guard damage they are now receiving.

Don't know how you think I'm speaking theoretically when I've explained in detail the over powered state parry was for mitigating guard damage before.

Hope that makes sense.

[detrap]

fair how? seems like that was the start of catering to rdps, something that didn't necessarily need to happen.

HTL got buffed

[detrap]

This change affects all tanks but as an SnB tank I barely noticed it because I have high block and it saves me nicely. And I have all avoidance stats maxed up through renown and I never really liked short parry buffs because they are too short. So for those hits that pass through my defences and cause harm I have healers and IB self-heal. So I am cool with the change as an SnB. Well, it became a bit harder so what? Only a bit.

But when I respecced 2h IB I felt the change! I was melting like a candle while guarding despite my parry was about 60-70! Parry is no longer a king of the hill for guarding and guarding by 2h is another way to die. Feel sorry for 2h tanks but value of them dropped and they can remove guard from their action bars.

So what now? 2h tanks are still defensive, can deal some damage but no more guarding. Not that they really wanted to since they dropped their shields voluntary. By means of the patch they have now been made a selfish prick class. Now it's official.

So if you want to be a tanky 2h you will need to boost all your defensive stats (parry/dodge/disrupt/weapon skill/initiative/willpower) and rely on better positioning, your damage debuffs, and SnB tanks to HTL for you against heavy ranged. You need to find gear and setups to help max those 3 defences to eat as much guard damage as possible. It's easier than you might think.

[abezverkhiy]

Agreed. But don't really care as I am fine being SnB. It is fair to cull 2h and make them think harder.

[Akilinus]

Agreed. But don't really care as I am fine being SnB. It is fair to cull 2h and make them think harder.

Its hard to take your opinion serious when you state that you dont care. Ofc if it wont effect you its a huge nerf to everyone else.
Im not sure what you mean with think harder?

[Ysaran]

The direct damage you take as 2h has not changed yes. But you are not a primary target in city fights or small scale, and unless you are an SM you have no place face tanking multiple warbands in orvr without a shield.

Even tho you are not a primary target there's still AoE damage that you need to soak up. Do you know the amount of spam that Engie and SW can bring up?
There are skill locked behinde 2h requirement and now you can't use it. The main BG wb build (Crimson Death) is dead. And so many other builds. It stupid that you have requirment that you can't fulfill. Just take away those skills.
2h tanks in city aren't trying to "face tank multiple WBs", they are just trying to do their job. What you are saing is basicly that there's no place for 2h tank outside of SCs. But that wasn't the aim of the Devs. The changes to Guard were done to make SnB more viable in smallscale, not to kill 2h tanks in WB environment. Those two things are different.

P.S. my source about the avoidences cap was outdated, my bad

Never said that there's no place for 2h. They can still have good survivability they just need more defensive gear and better positioning. The changes was about guard damage, the normal damage you take from 2h hasn't changed, and not sure why you would want to buff survivability for 2h so they can face tank warbands. If you want to do that playing an SM is great for that.

I repeat myself: I never said that 2h tanks have to face-tank multiple wb.
What I'm saying from the first page is that you CAN spec for 2h and survivability (althought the game isn't really designed for it), but doing so you lose the very reason you specced for 2h: skill locked behinde 2h requirement.
I'll make you an example:
on BG you would have used this build (RoR.builders - Black Guard) for city or wb. But with this build, now you would just melt. Even speccing all you gear and RP defensivelly. So now, for 2h build you will use this build here (RoR.builders - Black Guard). In the second build you don't take neither the wounds debuff or Crimson Death, which are the reasons to take a 2h BG in wb. So, what's the point of playing bg in wb? There's none! And this is exactly why even in organized wb you will not see more than 1 BG.
Also, I really don't get why you support this change. This change is one of the very reasons why Order is deeply lacking in melee characters AND roaming party. IMO reverting part of this change (put guard damage only on parry, but leave stats contri and striketrought in the formula) would help Order get back some of his melees