2h Tank guard

[Akilinus]

My thought are:
1)2h BG(and other tanks) bring a lot of "thing's" moreover than just 2h guardbot. 2h BG makes dd's life easier. You can not ignore all these debuffs.
2)2h tanks become a master level class. Just running around, stick to your guard's target and cast 2-3 spells + use moral on command is not enough to be viable.
3)It doesnt mean that 2h tanks completely dead.
4)2h tanks need to rethink their behaviors and position on the battlefield.
5)Guard stops to become braindead ability. When and where now are main questions for Guard.
6)You have to "GIT GUD"
7)I dont think that's problem for organized wb. At all. If they need spot for these debuffs they will find spot and player who know what to do.

It's kinda interesting changes. They are painful. But who knows where we will come.

I dont think I have seen anyone trying to make a move and get a 2h tank in warband ever since these changes got implemented.

[sharpblader]

If you read what I wrote, I was saying 2h tanks were harder to kill, and in many cases tankier than snb tanks. The change is better now.

2h was never tankier than SnB.

Your logic is fundamentally flawed. Even assuming that 2h was tanking more guard damage than SnB due to 100% avoidance, you forget that is not the only source of damage taken by tanks and they do get hit eventually and 2h tanks would melt to ranged pressure.

You also forget that many defensive abilities are tied to only shield. And I believe 2h tanks cant maintain 100% uptime on avoidance enhancers.

Principally, I believe guard damage taken should be same as the original source (magical/ranged/melee) rather than just physical melee. It just makes sense.

[detrap]

If you read what I wrote, I was saying 2h tanks were harder to kill, and in many cases tankier than snb tanks. The change is better now.

2h was never tankier than SnB.

Your logic is fundamentally flawed. Even assuming that 2h was tanking more guard damage than SnB due to 100% avoidance, you forget that is not the only source of damage taken by tanks and they do get hit eventually and 2h tanks would melt to ranged pressure.

You also forget that many defensive abilities are tied to only shield. And I believe 2h tanks cant maintain 100% uptime on avoidance enhancers.

Principally, I believe guard damage taken should be same as the original source (magical/ranged/melee) rather than just physical melee. It just makes sense.

You never played an SM then?

[nocturnalguest]

From conversations I've had with a dev they have said there is no cap, and reason you take damage still with 100%/200% parry is either you are hit with strikethrough/aoe/undefendable attacks/morales/already dotted up or debuffed. Checked my combat logs plenty of times with 2h and snb. No damage taken after 10-20+ consecutive hits. No guard damage at all when using shield wall or oath stone either. The source you linked is from 2019 that the guy is referring to conversations he has had with devs and a post from 2014. /shrug?

No offense taken but I think it's cheap to question someone's judgement about a game with code that's not clearly laid out in black and white. Please correct me if I jump the gun on an aspect of the game but don't jump the gun to question personal discernment.

I need to apologize, especially for saltiness of my post. I beg a pardon for my tone.
I was not keeping myself up to date and thats me who needed some education and to keep track of things, because you turn right - NOW guard avoidance does not have any kind of hard cap like it used to on live and here before aprox april of 2019 (none would confirm anything tho). And actually dalen mentioned it in the post i linked myself...
It doesnt change the fact that your claim about survivability (even talking only about guard) 2h vs SnB tanks is blatantly false information and plain wrong.
It has been widely discussed before in same 2019.
Here is a link to an epic thread (there are a couple more, you can just follow hogun's post history if curious): viewtopic.php?f=8&t=31055

Did some minor search and figure that ninja change (guard dodge/disrupt change has never made it to patch notes) starts here with this post: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=31055&start=40#p352017
It went mostly unnoticed till dalen actually dig it up and confirmed it works this way now.

some people were spreading fake news about some mysterious cap of 75 for avoidances

Like you yourself mate?
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=34527#p384321

P.S. @detrap refering to "about a game with code that's not clearly laid out in black and white"
combat formula code is openly on github since 2014. it has not been changed.

[detrap]

The change is warranted. Tanks need to be tanky and not be leaning towards mdps-like damage without paying a penalty other than not having access to certain abilities. If you want to be tanky still you won't need end game gear to have high defences as a 2H tank, and at least you don't have to spend points into block and can spread it over more valuable renown rank buffs.

You keep commenting with the notion that 2h DEFENSIVE tanks dont exist.

Anyway, the reason people want to run 2handers is because some ABILITIES ARE LOCKED BEHIND 2H REQUIREMENTS so it's not really "your choice" when changes done in ROR, by our previous/current devs, have resulted in forcing people to play 2hander specs if they want access to abilities/tactics that are in demand (BG debuffs, KOTB debuffs, BO dmg channel, etc)

This coupled with the option of choice. Re-read what Aurandilaz wrote.

I am curious though, what is this melee-like dps you speak of? Please humor me and provide a sample of melee-like dps from, lets say a 2h knight compared to what you think is the least performing melee dps.

SM's hitting for 1k, IB's/Chosens hitting for a lot more, and Black Orc's hitting for 2k.

[detrap]

I know you were talking about guard damage, but my point is: it doesn't exist only guard damage. Block help you with all three avoidences, parry with melee attacks and guard damage and dodge/disrupt with ranged attacks. The downside of being 2h is that you don't have block to mitigate ranged damege, since you can't increase you dodge/disrupt with tactics or abilities.
The game is designed to have lower dodge/disrupt rate. You get very few dodge/disrupt from gear, you get no dodge by tactic and there are only two tactics that give disrupt. In terms of RP, you pay both dodge/disrupt the same as parry, even thought you get 2 avoidences at the price of one. HTL gives you huge amount ofboth dodge/disrupt, but no parry or block. All this, because tanks were designed to rely on parry and block mainly.
Block, Parry, Dodge and Disrupt are capped at 75%. HTL gives 45% Dodge and Disrupt to you, and 15% Dodge and Disrupt to those behinde your back. The 15% bonus can stack up to 3 times by receiving HTL from 3 different tanks.
Before patch you needed only parry to mitigate guard damage as 2h, but this wasn't making you as hard as a SnB. You always have traded survivability (and skills locked behinde shield )for utility (better punt and skills locked behinde 2h). Irt was a fair trade, but now is only bs.

The direct damage you take as 2h has not changed yes. But you are not a primary target in city fights or small scale, and unless you are an SM you have no place face tanking multiple warbands in orvr without a shield.

Even tho you are not a primary target there's still AoE damage that you need to soak up. Do you know the amount of spam that Engie and SW can bring up?
There are skill locked behinde 2h requirement and now you can't use it. The main BG wb build (Crimson Death) is dead. And so many other builds. It stupid that you have requirment that you can't fulfill. Just take away those skills.
2h tanks in city aren't trying to "face tank multiple WBs", they are just trying to do their job. What you are saing is basicly that there's no place for 2h tank outside of SCs. But that wasn't the aim of the Devs. The changes to Guard were done to make SnB more viable in smallscale, not to kill 2h tanks in WB environment. Those two things are different.

P.S. my source about the avoidences cap was outdated, my bad

Never said that there's no place for 2h. They can still have good survivability they just need more defensive gear and better positioning. The changes was about guard damage, the normal damage you take from 2h hasn't changed, and not sure why you would want to buff survivability for 2h so they can face tank warbands. If you want to do that playing an SM is great for that.

[detrap]

From conversations I've had with a dev they have said there is no cap, and reason you take damage still with 100%/200% parry is either you are hit with strikethrough/aoe/undefendable attacks/morales/already dotted up or debuffed. Checked my combat logs plenty of times with 2h and snb. No damage taken after 10-20+ consecutive hits. No guard damage at all when using shield wall or oath stone either. The source you linked is from 2019 that the guy is referring to conversations he has had with devs and a post from 2014. /shrug?

No offense taken but I think it's cheap to question someone's judgement about a game with code that's not clearly laid out in black and white. Please correct me if I jump the gun on an aspect of the game but don't jump the gun to question personal discernment.

I need to apologize, especially for saltiness of my post. I beg a pardon for my tone.
I was not keeping myself up to date and thats me who needed some education and to keep track of things, because you turn right - NOW guard avoidance does not have any kind of hard cap like it used to on live and here before aprox april of 2019 (none would confirm anything tho). And actually dalen mentioned it in the post i linked myself...
It doesnt change the fact that your claim about survivability (even talking only about guard) 2h vs SnB tanks is blatantly false information and plain wrong.
It has been widely discussed before in same 2019.
Here is a link to an epic thread (there are a couple more, you can just follow hogun's post history if curious): viewtopic.php?f=8&t=31055

Did some minor search and figure that ninja change (guard dodge/disrupt change has never made it to patch notes) starts here with this post: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=31055&start=40#p352017
It went mostly unnoticed till dalen actually dig it up and confirmed it works this way now.

some people were spreading fake news about some mysterious cap of 75 for avoidances

Like you yourself mate?
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=34527#p384321

All good mate. The SM's that can spam 100% parry say that's wrong. Any tank that can get near that would also say that's wrong. I said the survivability was equal to or even better than snb for eating guard damage. Yeah the code is all there but I have to test things myself to find out what works and why 2h was equal to/better for guard damage than snb was on some classes.

[nocturnalguest]

@detrap
Look man, bad bait, but im taking.
2h tank can reach a point that it dont need to care much about guard dmg. HP bar barely moves in small scale encounters. True.
Does it mean that you can "walk in" and say that - ow boiz, look (citing you btw):
"It's not fair that 2h tanks are just as hard to kill as snb tanks"
"If you also want more survivability as a 2h have more snb tanks in the warband using htl?"
"It was a great change and better for the game overall!"
All your 3 initial points have been debunked.
No need to overwrite your claims.

[detrap]

@detrap
Look man, bad bait, but im taking.
2h tank can reach a point that it dont need to care much about guard dmg. HP bar barely moves in small scale encounters. True.
Does it mean that you can "walk in" and say that - ow boiz, look (citing you btw):
"It's not fair that 2h tanks are just as hard to kill as snb tanks"
"If you also want more survivability as a 2h have more snb tanks in the warband using htl?"
"It was a great change and better for the game overall!"
All your 3 initial points have been debunked.
No need to overwrite your claims.

Debunked how?

Yes...it's not fair 2h tanks could survive the guard damage as well as snb tanks.
Yes...since tanks have trouble stacking dodge and disrupt with 2h builds, relying on the 45% buff from shield tanks is useful.
Yes...the game is better now that there is more of an emphasis on snb tanks in wb play.

Please list why those comments are incorrect.

[sharpblader]

If you read what I wrote, I was saying 2h tanks were harder to kill, and in many cases tankier than snb tanks. The change is better now.

2h was never tankier than SnB.

Your logic is fundamentally flawed. Even assuming that 2h was tanking more guard damage than SnB due to 100% avoidance, you forget that is not the only source of damage taken by tanks and they do get hit eventually and 2h tanks would melt to ranged pressure.

You also forget that many defensive abilities are tied to only shield. And I believe 2h tanks cant maintain 100% uptime on avoidance enhancers.

Principally, I believe guard damage taken should be same as the original source (magical/ranged/melee) rather than just physical melee. It just makes sense.

You never played an SM then?

Yes, have you?

What is your point?