do we have a balance problem?

[balvor877]

Uhh... game is not balanced around T1, where you don't have the full kit or know what you are doing, unless you are making an alt of the same class?

Of course not but T1 is also a part of the game. More important then you would think.

The game has to be fun and balanced from level 1 on because otherwise people start switching sides and classes and we end with way more Destro than Order players. This results in less SC pops and less enemies for the more populated side and frustration and being hammered in each SC for the underdog. That's not fun.

Therefore the balance and fun is most important in such games because if it feels balanced and fun you will keep playing, if not you will either change sides or say "fu** this garbage" and leave.

[emiliorv]

how stupid to claim for balance about CD decreasers when you (order) still refuses to play the only that you have....
how stupid is claim to get better melees when you (order) have access to the most overtuned mdps and still refuses to play...

7 instances of solopuggers with totally imbalanced wbs got stomped by proper wbs => nothing new, indeed its totally balanced...the problem will be if that PUG wbs were winning vs organized wbs

[sighy]

Spoiler:

Regarding t1 this is my break down of the Order classes:

- IB used to have some nice damage when stacking str and dots. It's a watered down version of the BG now. It just doesn't perform well and therefore is not fun to play.
- RP is pretty fine in t1, so is Zealot with the advantage of the bubble. The first tactic for dwarves is a joke btw. 50% recovery from knock downs while e.g. the goblins get a 25% auto detaunt.
- Engi can be pretty powerful in t1 and suck ***** the moment they enter t2+. The Magus scales much nicer.
- Slayer is also the weaker version of the Choppa in t1. Dies pretty quick. No access to the wounds tactic.

- WH is still good regarding damage output but with my WE I can stack tough and wounds and still have good dps (fast daggers, kisses and synergies with other classes). With WH you are either squishy or a little tougher with no damage.
- WP was always good and is still good as healer. Same as the DoK with slight advantage due to bubble. However, the Dok can go dps while the WP is much weaker as dps.
- Knight: I don't play knights often but they used to perform better with 2h and stacked str.
- BW: lol, what a joke. Every tank laughing at you. Casts slow, damage meh and on top of it you are hurting yourself. BW is in a very bad shape. Sorc somehow do better. Maybe it's because they always have at least a Chosen tank and usually also a Magus.

- WL used to have some nice burst damage and used to be a thread for shamans, SHs, sorcs, etc. Now they are a joke in t1. Coordinated strike hits like a wet noodle these days. The pet is broken, you dont have
the tools of the mara, you are squishy as **** and the burst is gone.
- SW is one of the few classes who are now better in t1 then years ago. Id say it's well balanced. Not over- nor underpowered.
- AM got hit by 2 nerfs (lost 3rd dot in t1 and the nice healing of the casted drain spell). It's basically the same as shaman now, only weaker without the auto detaunt. The mechanic is bull crap.
- SM: worst tank in t1. Just awful. Bad damage, bad survivability, bad utility. Even fully tweaked just mediocre in t1.

So all in all the Order classes are just weaker versions of the Destro classes, with less utiltity or less survivablity or less damage.

The following t1 Order classes are fine as they are: RP, Engi, WP, SW, shield Knight, dps AM
To these I would give a small boost: WH, healing AM, 2h Knight
And these need a larger boost: IB (lacking sustained dps), WL (lacking frontload dps, cost of abilitites too high), BW (lacking damage/burst on tanks and healers), SM (there is nothing unique about this class, dual whielding swords would be nice)

my 2 cents

Uhh... game is not balanced around T1, where you don't have the full kit or know what you are doing, unless you are making an alt of the same class?

game is balanced to be more easy and more fun for destro thats it.

So that's why Order has the literal strongest classes of the archetype... the more you know.

Only place Sorc can outperform BW(barring skill discrepency) is timestamps.

SL is the single strongest mdps by a damn landslide both aoe and single target depending on spec.

WP is super strong both conventional and shield spec

KotBS is the toughest bastard in the game, who brings a ton of utility

SW has strong ranged aoe and excellent st/tankyness in assault

WLs have been an overpowered overperforming nightmare for years... and so forth.


I'm not denying that some classes/specs on Order struggle like WHs, however that is because they are the 4th best(out of 4) mst and have basically no aoe, where their greatest strength is to stealth up and run away from a situation where the other 3 would die anyway. And offensively punces are way less clunky than stealth. To give an example.

[emiliorv]

Spoiler:

Uhh... game is not balanced around T1, where you don't have the full kit or know what you are doing, unless you are making an alt of the same class?

game is balanced to be more easy and more fun for destro thats it.

So that's why Order has the literal strongest classes of the archetype... the more you know.

Only place Sorc can outperform BW(barring skill discrepency) is timestamps.

SL is the single strongest mdps by a damn landslide both aoe and single target depending on spec.

WP is super strong both conventional and shield spec

KotBS is the toughest bastard in the game, who brings a ton of utility

SW has strong ranged aoe and excellent st/tankyness in assault

WLs have been an overpowered overperforming nightmare for years... and so forth.


I'm not denying that some classes/specs on Order struggle like WHs, however that is because they are the 4th best(out of 4) mst and have basically no aoe, where their greatest strength is to stealth up and run away from a situation where the other 3 would die anyway. And offensively punces are way less clunky than stealth. To give an example.

really you can take any serious answer after reading this => "BW (lacking damage/burst on tanks and healers)"

[sighy]

Uhh... game is not balanced around T1, where you don't have the full kit or know what you are doing, unless you are making an alt of the same class?

Of course not but T1 is also a part of the game. More important then you would think.

The game has to be fun and balanced from level 1 on because otherwise people start switching sides and classes and we end with way more Destro than Order players. This results in less SC pops and less enemies for the more populated side and frustration and being hammered in each SC for the underdog. That's not fun.

Therefore the balance and fun is most important in such games because if it feels balanced and fun you will keep playing, if not you will either change sides or say "fu** this garbage" and leave.

T1 is deeply flawed and that's not something related to class balance. It's always on the direct line from wc to wc, where the ppl trying to do the map get killed anyway while trying to carry a crate on the losing side. Boiling down to "more people beats less people". While in SCs people who know how to minmax their characters and/or give resources from their mains have huge advantages. Talis, pots, masteries, renown, even keeper or other obscure sets and filled item slots, for example. I would fully expect a new player to go into pve for first few levels, get killed by wc-wc zerg or get bored at the opposite end, get roflstomped by twinking minmaxed 6 man, with xp reduction thingy in scs and leave.

[CeeJay89]

how stupid to claim for balance about CD decreasers when you (order) still refuses to play the only that you have....
how stupid is claim to get better melees when you (order) have access to the most overtuned mdps and still refuses to play...

7 instances of solopuggers with totally imbalanced wbs got stomped by proper wbs => nothing new, indeed its totally balanced...the problem will be if that PUG wbs were winning vs organized wbs

The stark contrast between the cooldown decreasers on Order (WW) and Destro (CF, WAAGH) has already been outlined. Whether it is used or not is irrelevant.

Slayer being the best MDPS in the game (not that much better than Choppa) under ideal conditions doesn't excuse the imbalance everywhere else. Not everyone is interested in playing the class just because it's strong.

[Charon]

Uhh... game is not balanced around T1, where you don't have the full kit or know what you are doing, unless you are making an alt of the same class?

game is balanced to be more easy and more fun for destro thats it.

So that's why Order has the literal strongest classes of the archetype... the more you know.

Only place Sorc can outperform BW(barring skill discrepency) is timestamps.

SL is the single strongest mdps by a damn landslide both aoe and single target depending on spec.

WP is super strong both conventional and shield spec

KotBS is the toughest bastard in the game, who brings a ton of utility

SW has strong ranged aoe and excellent st/tankyness in assault

WLs have been an overpowered overperforming nightmare for years... and so forth.


I'm not denying that some classes/specs on Order struggle like WHs, however that is because they are the 4th best(out of 4) mst and have basically no aoe, where their greatest strength is to stealth up and run away from a situation where the other 3 would die anyway. And offensively punces are way less clunky than stealth. To give an example.

you are not playing order much just read the comments at forum .....don't you .... From perspective of wb player that really care about it group composition it looks a bit differently/very differently ..biggest question is ....."So what?"

and then (im taking into consideration rather utilities / group synergies in large scale than pure dmg/healing output or straight self toughness)

BO>>>>SM
BG>>IB
Chosen=Knight (in some aspects)
Mara=>WL (in some aspects)
Magus>>>>Eng
Zealot >> Runie
Shamie>>AM
and from my perspective Choppa>SL (taking consideration whole realm advantages .....you don't need to agree with me)
msh>asw (but iits a bit different league)
rsh>scout sw

[Sundowner]

Uhh... game is not balanced around T1, where you don't have the full kit or know what you are doing, unless you are making an alt of the same class?

game is balanced to be more easy and more fun for destro thats it.

So that's why Order has the literal strongest classes of the archetype... the more you know.

Only place Sorc can outperform BW(barring skill discrepency) is timestamps.

SL is the single strongest mdps by a damn landslide both aoe and single target depending on spec.

WP is super strong both conventional and shield spec

KotBS is the toughest bastard in the game, who brings a ton of utility

SW has strong ranged aoe and excellent st/tankyness in assault

WLs have been an overpowered overperforming nightmare for years... and so forth.


I'm not denying that some classes/specs on Order struggle like WHs, however that is because they are the 4th best(out of 4) mst and have basically no aoe, where their greatest strength is to stealth up and run away from a situation where the other 3 would die anyway. And offensively punces are way less clunky than stealth. To give an example.

Are you trolling or blind? SL is not stronges by landslide, not even close to that. WP is better than DOK in heal, but not y a lot. mSH is better in city than sw. WL is OP? play a game a bit dude, don't tell lies.

[Ramlaen]

However, cast-time increasers aren't gamechangers like COOLDOWN increasers and decreasers. SL and SH is mostly fine, even if SH has a much easier time applying it properly. The problem is in decreasers, where Choppa and BO have vastly superior abilities opposed to SM.

Ok, so Chopp Fasta (-5s for 20s for group members 100ft away, counter to KOTBS To Victory! anti gtdc tool) can be countered by RP Master Rune of Speed (-0,25s for 30s 100ft range, ground targeted, not mirrored to zeal btw), SM's aoe challenge attack (ALL dmg reduced by 80% for 4 seconds, 20ft with tactic.. Talk about OP) + AP reduce cost for most of channels you hit once you're under CD increase + Whispering Winds (that's 4s silence + heals + CD decrease with tactic). My oh my, the grass does look greener...

cast speed =/= cooldown, please learn what abilities do before attempting to discuss class balance

[puzzolamistica]

Uhh... game is not balanced around T1, where you don't have the full kit or know what you are doing, unless you are making an alt of the same class?

game is balanced to be more easy and more fun for destro thats it.

So that's why Order has the literal strongest classes of the archetype... the more you know.

Only place Sorc can outperform BW(barring skill discrepency) is timestamps.

SL is the single strongest mdps by a damn landslide both aoe and single target depending on spec.

WP is super strong both conventional and shield spec

KotBS is the toughest bastard in the game, who brings a ton of utility

SW has strong ranged aoe and excellent st/tankyness in assault

WLs have been an overpowered overperforming nightmare for years... and so forth.


I'm not denying that some classes/specs on Order struggle like WHs, however that is because they are the 4th best(out of 4) mst and have basically no aoe, where their greatest strength is to stealth up and run away from a situation where the other 3 would die anyway. And offensively punces are way less clunky than stealth. To give an example.

Wp is same as dok but is worst in solo roaming
kotbs is stronger but after all nerf is becaming really close to chosen wile right now the only difference is mending + dirty trics while chosen has wounds debuff + 25 free parry + more assist. plus he can be played as a solo roamer and 2h spec offer more fun.
sw is a meme wile sh has 2 good spec for wb and solo roaming, it could be good in a perfect setup played as asw.
Wl is worst than sh and mara in wb and is just the only decent class playable for solo roaming as order so as i said the only decetn class that order has to offer for soling is op because sometimes can kill a destro xD.

i m not complaining about city i know right now tup phalangs narcotix and a lot of good players/leader are playing destro so order cant do much on city, im complaining about the general game balance.
Peoples dont play order tanks because in general are weaker and they offer less fun, destro dps are all around more competitve and balanced wile order has only 2 really viable option (bw and sl) plus a wl that is strong but still weaker than sh and mara.
Plus preatty much all destro classes are viable for wb/6man/solo, wile order classes cant offer this fun aspect of the game.
If u play order u can do well only one thing if u play destro u can have fun in all aspect of the game.