Whats going on with Destro?

[marafado]

moral of story only fmj is a real destro guild!? the rest are xrealm bitches!?
realy sad the path ror follow

[Mruvka]

Whenever somebody says that "Destro is weak", just remember that during events with a boss in Chaos Wastes, Order kills the boss 1 out of 30 times.

Destro melee trains are famous for crushing through Order in City and scenarios. As an Order player, you never escape the feeling that you are only getting IC when Destro want to level up their Order alternative characters.

[Starx]

Destro leaders did not reroll Order, stop with that nonsense. Everyone has been playing both sides for a while. TUP started on Order, went Destro, came back to Order and now they're on the side that has less pop, same about NGE. A lot of other destro guilds (Ere we go, Absolution, WoM) have also been hopping back and forth depending on the situation. Sliver of PnP went Order full time but that's about it for the real changes. FMJ is still a juggernaut, VII is still one of the most capable WBs in pushes when they ahve their guild events on.

A lot of the leads just stopped playing, as did many Order leaders (one of the only hardcore pure Order guilds has literally exploded twice in last 6 months)...it's that simple. We just had better luck cultivating a lot more leaders and organised guilds since the start of the summer.

Stop being delusional about this, there is no conspiracy of HC leaders/guild deciding where they move depending on the skewed balance. Especially since a lot of those leaders themselves has spent last 8 months saying ho much they want to break the zerg, have quality fights against organised and good enemy and all of that.

Pretty much this, my guild has always played both sides but for the past year we have basically been perma locked on destro because there is literally no one to fight if you play order besides cities. And because we now have lame hardware based realm locks we cant play destro and do city on order to get good fights oh well. That and for your average player sov grind is like a half or more year ordeal and constantly swapping will lead to people getting screwed over on their grind for city gear.

moral of story only fmj is a real destro guild!? the rest are xrealm bitches!?
realy sad the path ror follow

Aside from the lazy peon days this server has always had a fragile/low population that's susceptible to massive swings. Playing one side isn't fun, attacking isn't fun in general. Many people don't want to play on the realm that has the zerg, watching ram swing, and afking... they actually want to fight people and get RR and that has since the birth of this server meant playing in a guild that had characters on both sides and playing with AAO. It's only until recently with the realm lockout that has become hard to do.

[Dondabon]

My post intentionally left out any destro buffs or order nerfs, which are also a thing, to illustrate the worst case scenario where IF the only thing that happened in a vacuum, were the changes listed. Attempting to show the very small impact that recent balance changes under this specific narrative being spread (destro nerfs and order buffs are responsible), while the reality being a shift of populations and leadership cause overall RvR outcomes to change. The post from July that was initially shared was to reflect that population shifts happen and dominance by one side or the other are inevitable, and yes your assumption that morale among the playerbase is accurate, there are other reasons for it. Notable, the "git gud, organize" retort shared by Destro caused Order to indeed git gud, and the resulting Destro losses hit extra hard on the morale of their base as going from winning all the time (due to population primarily) to losing more frequently, causes the base of players who are here to win to either quit, or follow the tide and switch sides.

A bit more nuanced than "devs biased changes cause my faction to collapse". It didn't. These things are a cycle, and it happens over and over. Balance and development rarely interfere because large changes that might actually, quickly, affect realm populations would be far more damaging than letting the shifts play out and go down their natural course.

I would actually love to see full picture. The way you presented in previous post buffs/nerfs is very clear, is it possible that you put full picture of changes in last 2 months?
So for example changes benefiting order/changes benefiting destro/neutral changes.
This way it might appear that changes were actually fully neutral and that we were mistaken all along. When you see patch by patch we probably don't see full picture.

P.S. I am not buying that order got good by that large margin that they turned around whole server so much that all but FMJ concluded that only possible solution to victory is to join this highly organized meat grinder. They probably got better, but no way they did it by that much. Props for getting better tho, its not hard to continue trying when, at some point, you are losing 80% of the cities.

P.P.S. Someone said that FMJ is only true destro guild - yep. And only guild that is organized and in large enough numbers left on destro atm. VII is still there, but they are having trouble making full wb even on raid nights as far as I know.

[zij83]

My post intentionally left out any destro buffs or order nerfs, which are also a thing, to illustrate the worst case scenario where IF the only thing that happened in a vacuum, were the changes listed. Attempting to show the very small impact that recent balance changes under this specific narrative being spread (destro nerfs and order buffs are responsible), while the reality being a shift of populations and leadership cause overall RvR outcomes to change. The post from July that was initially shared was to reflect that population shifts happen and dominance by one side or the other are inevitable, and yes your assumption that morale among the playerbase is accurate, there are other reasons for it. Notable, the "git gud, organize" retort shared by Destro caused Order to indeed git gud, and the resulting Destro losses hit extra hard on the morale of their base as going from winning all the time (due to population primarily) to losing more frequently, causes the base of players who are here to win to either quit, or follow the tide and switch sides.

A bit more nuanced than "devs biased changes cause my faction to collapse". It didn't. These things are a cycle, and it happens over and over. Balance and development rarely interfere because large changes that might actually, quickly, affect realm populations would be far more damaging than letting the shifts play out and go down their natural course.

I would actually love to see full picture. The way you presented in previous post buffs/nerfs is very clear, is it possible that you put full picture of changes in last 2 months?
So for example changes benefiting order/changes benefiting destro/neutral changes.
This way it might appear that changes were actually fully neutral and that we were mistaken all along. When you see patch by patch we probably don't see full picture.

P.S. I am not buying that order got good by that large margin that they turned around whole server so much that all but FMJ concluded that only possible solution to victory is to join this highly organized meat grinder. They probably got better, but no way they did it by that much. Props for getting better tho, its not hard to continue trying when, at some point, you are losing 80% of the cities.

P.P.S. Someone said that FMJ is only true destro guild - yep. And only guild that is organized and in large enough numbers left on destro atm. VII is still there, but they are having trouble making full wb even on raid nights as far as I know.

Nah man order just got so gud that they obliterate destro in 95% of cases when attacking forts. If only destro could get so gud. Order wow, much gud, so fort. (insert doge)

[Hardkoar]

Spoiler:

My post intentionally left out any destro buffs or order nerfs, which are also a thing, to illustrate the worst case scenario where IF the only thing that happened in a vacuum, were the changes listed. Attempting to show the very small impact that recent balance changes under this specific narrative being spread (destro nerfs and order buffs are responsible), while the reality being a shift of populations and leadership cause overall RvR outcomes to change. The post from July that was initially shared was to reflect that population shifts happen and dominance by one side or the other are inevitable, and yes your assumption that morale among the playerbase is accurate, there are other reasons for it. Notable, the "git gud, organize" retort shared by Destro caused Order to indeed git gud, and the resulting Destro losses hit extra hard on the morale of their base as going from winning all the time (due to population primarily) to losing more frequently, causes the base of players who are here to win to either quit, or follow the tide and switch sides.

A bit more nuanced than "devs biased changes cause my faction to collapse". It didn't. These things are a cycle, and it happens over and over. Balance and development rarely interfere because large changes that might actually, quickly, affect realm populations would be far more damaging than letting the shifts play out and go down their natural course.

I would actually love to see full picture. The way you presented in previous post buffs/nerfs is very clear, is it possible that you put full picture of changes in last 2 months?
So for example changes benefiting order/changes benefiting destro/neutral changes.
This way it might appear that changes were actually fully neutral and that we were mistaken all along. When you see patch by patch we probably don't see full picture.

P.S. I am not buying that order got good by that large margin that they turned around whole server so much that all but FMJ concluded that only possible solution to victory is to join this highly organized meat grinder. They probably got better, but no way they did it by that much. Props for getting better tho, its not hard to continue trying when, at some point, you are losing 80% of the cities.

P.P.S. Someone said that FMJ is only true destro guild - yep. And only guild that is organized and in large enough numbers left on destro atm. VII is still there, but they are having trouble making full wb even on raid nights as far as I know.

[/spoiler]

Nah man order just got so gud that they obliterate destro in 95% of cases when attacking forts. If only destro could get so gud. Order wow, much gud, so fort. (insert doge)

I hear destro Xrealm to order side and automatically L2P

[Valarion]

As with any faction based pvp game the imbalance will just get worse as everyone will jump to the winning side.

Hotspec likes to heal the side with AAO

Someone has to heal you baddies. That being said, I wont heal latenight Oceanic Destro. They are extra bad for some reason.

[Rekoom]

Tbh I wouldn't argue on recent Destro "nerfs" at all because, as Wargrimnir pointed out, it is a very weak argument.

I would however look into the differences that have been there forever (including on live) and that do impact the outcome when properly used/abused combined with the improvements of previously underperforming careers.

Imo, feel free to correct me:

- more healing available to Order in general from WP/KotBS combo this is non negligeable and the largest factor in fort AFTER lack of Destro organized play
- undefendable high sustained damage from Slayer to melt tank lines on pushes (and in cities)
- superior aoe spec/damage on BW
- superior damage on Engie and better debuff synergy (armor & corp) - latest pet changes made turrets hit like TRUCKS btw
- superior aoe spread dot on SW, BHA is a monster criting for 1k+ on squishies, that's a lot of extra pressure Destro doesn't have access to at all
- a much better support tank in the KotBS

In comparison Destro as a faction looks better in the tank morale self pump game (which doesn't matter in fort as you want to wait for BG M4 anyway) and... Isn't that it?

Choppas may be marginally more survivable because they have +160 wounds but then again Slayers have +660 armor. Marauders have better utility than WL (if they spec and gear for it, at the expense of damage) but probably less aoe damage now and, while mSH are probably more meta than aSW are, aSW in a single target melee train is scary and rSW does insane spread aoe damage (which is not fluff, everything adds up to pressure healers).

Nevertheless it's hard to argue against the fact that, indeed, our leadership has vanished (because Order is the superior faction? I don't know, probably not) and we don't have anyone stepping in atm. It is particularly egregious in non-primetime as you do have some very strong WB leaders on Order (Beasts, Rolgrom, Xuber) in those hours while Destro is not fielding the organized/geared numbers to give a proper answer.

I was fighting in a 6man with my guild last night in Praag and we were just trying to find some even fights in the lakes while dodging 2 full organized WB. In the end we basically did 6v solo or 6v2 and got rolled/dodged everything else.... Engaging gameplay! We ended up logging off.

I am sure there are other guilds only able to do that atm and, while we should band up and field full 24 mans to have a decent chance, players most likely want to chill with friends and take it easy which is the point of a game after all but not conducive to winning in oRvR in those conditions.

TL;DR: Destro needs to get organized, yes. No Destro doesn't particularly need to l2p (although it does help to have tanks that guard and healers that heal), there are newbies on both factions. And yes I would argue Order is slightly stronger in the healing and aoe department, especially if they just have to hold a funnel and don't have to rely on tanks to protect their squishies.

[wonshot]

The whole "destro got nerfed and order got buffed/not nerfed" I would to some extend buy into that arguement.

Back when I grinded my sov sets and played RoR actively, you had certain tools on your own realm that you built your comp, strategies and setup around.
Same for playing experienced, you had certain tools and abilities on enemy realm you would focus on not allowing the enemy to perform

Example: Zealots selfpumping to reach a Windblock M4 was a really strong pugstomping morale dump, the experienced players knew how to find the zealots and track when they would expectedly drop such an "advantageous" tool and swing the fight in their favor. You tried to play around it, focus the zealots to keep resetting their moral bar and never allowing the swing to come in.
Basicly having this Zealot tool in the fights shaped the fights, alot of other key destro abilities like this were "touches" or changed over last half year where as the strong "play around them" tools on order were basicly not really touches, part of it comes down to Order just get raw extra damage procs and +healing tactics they can overlap and stack.

So I can honestly see, if I was in PnP & co's. shoes how the little tweaks to Destro's strongsuit abilities were slightly nerfed/adjusted or corrected, and how eventually you have been sitting for years looking at Orders supperior heal and damage advantage being untouched, while having their supperior morale-play (nerfed for both realms with target cap and cap of MDMG per sec)
Displacement from Zealot WoI (yet an other tool where it shaped the fight)
Choppa pull adjustments, while rampage still being untouched.
Yet an other RDPS class being made viable on Order when they already had supperior dps (thourgh restricted to fewer classes)
and a few other things like mara revert and no rsh revamp.

Looking through those glasses, I can see and understand how some of the Backbone of Destro, leaders got tired of the serverdirection and took a break.
Dont get me wrong, from Order point of view some of these abilities NEEDED counterplay and they were too potent. But I am trying to portray how I can also see from my enemiest view that this was just one slap in the face after the other.

Below ill link some of the LBL footage where we found out, on the day, how we should play aroun the zealots, you can hear and see how dangerous the Windblocks were, but also how keeping track of it helped you fight against it. For context we had 3-4 really close 24v24ish orvr fights with the pnp event warband, started out really rusty and with just a "zergbombing" mindset but improved and figured out the focus fireing better on the fly, and picking priority targets. My shotcalling is pure potatoe and i never wanted to actually do it, so bare with the mumble stuttering in high pressure situations.
https://youtu.be/g-Hi7PoT74o?t=944
(I dont think pnp were pussies, that was a heat of the moment coment and i have the biggest respect for them and their guild <3 )

[Twick]

Tbh I wouldn't argue on recent Destro "nerfs" at all because, as Wargrimnir pointed out, it is a very weak argument.

I would however look into the differences that have been there forever (including on live) and that do impact the outcome when properly used/abused combined with the improvements of previously underperforming careers.

Imo, feel free to correct me:

- more healing available to Order in general from WP/KotBS combo this is non negligeable and the largest factor in fort AFTER lack of Destro organized play
- undefendable high sustained damage from Slayer to melt tank lines on pushes (and in cities)
- superior aoe spec/damage on BW
- superior damage on Engie and better debuff synergy (armor & corp) - latest pet changes made turrets hit like TRUCKS btw
- superior aoe spread dot on SW, BHA is a monster criting for 1k+ on squishies, that's a lot of extra pressure Destro doesn't have access to at all
- a much better support tank in the KotBS

In comparison Destro as a faction looks better in the tank morale self pump game (which doesn't matter in fort as you want to wait for BG M4 anyway) and... Isn't that it?

Choppas may be marginally more survivable because they have +160 wounds but then again Slayers have +660 armor. Marauders have better utility than WL (if they spec and gear for it, at the expense of damage) but probably less aoe damage now and, while mSH are probably more meta than aSW are, aSW in a single target melee train is scary and rSW does insane spread aoe damage (which is not fluff, everything adds up to pressure healers).

Nevertheless it's hard to argue against the fact that, indeed, our leadership has vanished (because Order is the superior faction? I don't know, probably not) and we don't have anyone stepping in atm. It is particularly egregious in non-primetime as you do have some very strong WB leaders on Order (Beasts, Rolgrom, Xuber) in those hours while Destro is not fielding the organized/geared numbers to give a proper answer.

I was fighting in a 6man with my guild last night in Praag and we were just trying to find some even fights in the lakes while dodging 2 full organized WB. In the end we basically did 6v solo or 6v2 and got rolled/dodged everything else.... Engaging gameplay! We ended up logging off.

I am sure there are other guilds only able to do that atm and, while we should band up and field full 24 mans to have a decent chance, players most likely want to chill with friends and take it easy which is the point of a game after all but not conducive to winning in oRvR in those conditions.

TL;DR: Destro needs to get organized, yes. No Destro doesn't particularly need to l2p (although it does help to have tanks that guard and healers that heal), there are newbies on both factions. And yes I would argue Order is slightly stronger in the healing and aoe department, especially if they just have to hold a funnel and don't have to rely on tanks to protect their squishies.

I sort of disagree, order isn't this OP boogeyman that destro makes it out to be. You're right in Destro needing to be organized.


What I've seen lately is that it seems like all the new players in this recent wave on destro wanna be the hero and rolled solo/roaming builds to get some sort of power trip. But this isn't a solo show and yall need to stop with the DPS healers, the DPS tanks (yes a BO with a 2h looks **** awesome but the greater good is calling!) and DPS ranged SH's trying to nut hug their shammies and all the fugging WE's.


You're right though. Just work together, you guys have the numbers for sure. Every PQ boss lately in CW is dominated by Destro and yall have the advantage in open floor combat, order cant do that well without something to hide behind lol.


You guys got this, I have no doubt that in a couple of months we will be hearing all of this again.... but from Order side.