Brust potential of Mara comapred to order mdps

[nuadarstark]

Foof in this particular topic, you're arguing in such a manner that will just insinuate more pushback against the stuff you're arguing for.

You're saying that you understand that the big class reworks and extensive changes in multiple classes at the same time can be daunting and something the very small dev team we have in RoR can't exactly focus on, yet in the next comment you're also arguing that we shouldn't look at changes and underperformance/overperformance just in the context of one particular spec, but all across the 3 specs of all 24 classes.

Doesn't work like that, sadly. Which is what Sundowner, I think at least, is coming to in his arguments. There are classes which have 0 viable specs in certain aspects of the game, why should Mara be the class that gets a particular buff/nerf/rework to their trees and those extremely underperforming classes no chnage at all? You do ahve to understand that in this particular setup, with the resources devs have, there are at least 24 sides fighting over the attention of the devs.

At the same time, keep in mind that I do agree that the changes from 2017 should be reworked, along with many other things.

[farng84]

On what mara tree is supposed to do- it only exist in your imagionation (or memory from what mara was), maybe it is not supposed to have strong debuffs and ST damage?

Forgetting about all of the other points you made. If you go to career builder next to each three there is a "?", passing your mouse over it it will tell you the scope of that three.
Even without Foofmonger's knowledge of how things were in the past any noob can learn what each three does, namely:
Savagery: a path focused on lingering effects and weakening foes
Brutality: strong ST damage
Monstrosity: fighting multiple opponents

Marauders are complaining that Savagery is not doing what it should in a suitable way

[jughurta69]

if revert 2017
mara burst is good , he don't have a stun single target because he have a real burst .

if you think mara doesn't have a burst, change class

he don't have burst cc , but he have a burst

CC kill , mara is detaunt , control by order player . no stun kill but its burst is also very powerful



Fix cooldown thunderous blow actually not 5s for 20s actually 10s for 20s


Sorry google trad lol

[Sundowner]

On what mara tree is supposed to do- it only exist in your imagionation (or memory from what mara was), maybe it is not supposed to have strong debuffs and ST damage?

Forgetting about all of the other points you made. If you go to career builder next to each three there is a "?", passing your mouse over it it will tell you the scope of that three.
Even without Foofmonger's knowledge of how things were in the past any noob can learn what each three does, namely:
Savagery: a path focused on lingering effects and weakening foes
Brutality: strong ST damage
Monstrosity: fighting multiple opponents

Marauders are complaining that Savagery is not doing what it should in a suitable way

Again, misunderstanding, "Supposed to do" doesn't mean we do not have stated objective, it means how well x class should be doing x objective. i.e. how strong mara's ST should be. I think that clears it.

Again, I already stated and even proposed way to test if sava tree is doing its thing suitable or not, just theorizing is nothing, tangible data, tests and derived conclusions are needed.

[Foofmonger]

Foof in this particular topic, you're arguing in such a manner that will just insinuate more pushback against the stuff you're arguing for.

You're saying that you understand that the big class reworks and extensive changes in multiple classes at the same time can be daunting and something the very small dev team we have in RoR can't exactly focus on, yet in the next comment you're also arguing that we shouldn't look at changes and underperformance/overperformance just in the context of one particular spec, but all across the 3 specs of all 24 classes.

Doesn't work like that, sadly. Which is what Sundowner, I think at least, is coming to in his arguments. There are classes which have 0 viable specs in certain aspects of the game, why should Mara be the class that gets a particular buff/nerf/rework to their trees and those extremely underperforming classes no chnage at all? You do ahve to understand that in this particular setup, with the resources devs have, there are at least 24 sides fighting over the attention of the devs.

At the same time, keep in mind that I do agree that the changes from 2017 should be reworked, along with many other things.

You are misunderstanding my point. I'm talking that viable mastery paths for all classes should be the end goal. Not reworks, but paths that do what they are supposed to do.

I also understand that this is potential a long process, and may require years of work with the size of the dev team. I also agree with you that there is a certain "priority" to these things, and there are plenty of classes who would be more priority than Savagery Marauders.

However, I did not say "all specs should be all viable in all aspects of the game". There is no way to make a class have 3 viable city specs for instance. The purpose is to say "all specs should have a viability in some type of content in the game".

The WH/WE/SW for instance, all have larger priority issues than the Marauder.

That being said, we're talking about theoretical balance changes of the Marauder class in this thread, so what I'm saying is on-topic, and this whole nonsensical argument is not. I

"Marauders dont need X because other class needs Y" is red-herring logical fallacious arguments at best. Fundamentally, the purpose of this argument is to say "I do not care about your concerns, and I want to go into whataboutisms to derail the actual conversation being had".

[Foofmonger]

Firstly, when I say ST potential I mean the best setup of stats/mastery trees/tactics there is (sorry if I did not make that clear earlier).

And again about qualitive analysis. We have other mdps, mara does not exist separately in the game, something should be buffed when it is underperforming in comparison to other classes why it is hard to understand? Here is plan, take mara in both brut/monstro and brut/sava specs, compare ST damage with other mdps (also make qualitive adjustments such as survibility, mobility, etc.) compare results. if both builds are underperforming, there is need for buff, if one is on level of other mdps (medial, of course), then this is viable build in current state of the balance and ST should be played that way. Giving further buffs in this case will only make mara overtuned in comparison to other mdps.

Yes this is hard, time-consuming and tedious task, but balance changes should be done this way, not only theorizing about what it should be. and ST potential does not mean only damage, it means st debuffs too.

Also don't forget that its team-game, so you should compare other classes abilities too. You can't take one hero and make changes disregarding tanks/other mdps/healers which could have abilities which fill in gaps.

To end, I am not antagonizing you or destro side, I believe in balance and if something is underperforming it should be buffed, but arguments should be based on tangible data not assumptions and vision of the several players out of thousands.

Also I never insulted you or called you lazy, just tried to present my arguments. have a nice day

Do you honestly think the arguments I'm making aren't based on comparison to other classes? How hard is that to understand. I literally pointed out to you how the Savagery Marauder is underperforming compared to other classes, and your response was to then flip-flop into further nonsensical points as you backtracked.

I have tested the damage numbers of multiple DPS classes. You havent have you? It's not a hard task, and it's not tedious. I'm telling you the output based on my expertise, and your lack of it.

You are arguing from a point of your own ignorance, and doubling down when being presented with logic. Your arguments have no substance, are off-topic, and show a complete lack of understanding of the MDPS classes in this game.

Again, I already explained to you how in relation to many other classes, the Savagery Marauder has significant issues. If you want me to run numbers, I can do that all day long. They will support my overall point, as I've already explained to you by comparing relative debuff values between Mara ST debuffs and a variety of other classses AoE debuffs.

Lastly, I am not insulting you, or calling you lazy. I am saying you are doing a lazy analysis, and making lazy arguments. Somehow you have conflated this in your mind to read "I think you are a lazy person". That isn't what I stated, and I'd prefer less strawman logical fallacies in the future. I'm sorry it's hard for you to understand, but my life goal isn't to teach you how to think logically. Last I checked, you are a human being and not an analysis or argument.

If you are so "high on the data" and need it to come to conclusions, then it's time for you to get to work on running the numbers so you can be informed enough to have this conversation. I don't need to position my own argument in "your way" with "what you need" the burden is on you to counter my points by providing your own evidence, and you aren't doing anything close to that.

I made statements, based on expertise, deep analysis, and years of knowledge. Your only retort is "well I dont know the details or the data, so I dont agree".

Bye bye.

[farng84]

You keep going on mara ST burst, it keeps making little sense...nobody is asking to pump mara ST burst (except when OP was mocking in his answers)
Well, the fact that it is not used because underperforming compared to other spec/s should give you a proper amount of data which might tell you if it is good or bad?
Regarding how well a class should cover an objective I agree only partially. What I mean is:
Each class has to be better at something, let's say for example WL is better at ST compared to aoe, BW is the opposite.
But if we say BW is great aoe, very good ST, the dot three simply sucks just forget it.
In this case I'll tell you the dot three has some flaws which should be corrected as it makes no sense to have a three which is so bad it should not be used.
Different builds should be available and yes, there will be a meta build, but the others should be comparable as potential.
In Mara's example not using one of the two other threes should decrease the dmg potential (either ST or AOE since one of the two will not receive points), but selecting savagery should be justified by something
Now that three appear to have no real reason to be there. Why should Mara only have 2 viable threes?

[Foofmonger]

Now that three appear to have no real reason to be there. Why should Mara only have 2 viable threes?

It shouldn't, which is why nonsensical arguments that fundamentally miss the point are irrelevant.

There is no coherent argument for why classes should have bad mastery paths. This guys argument is basically "well I'm scared if you buff Savagery is will overtune Marauders" without the knowledge of how the specs or mastery paths even function or what their purpose is, how the debuffs compare to other classes, etc...

Ignorance is infectious, and I'm not in the mood for it. Others lack of knowledge has no bearing on coherent logical arguments.

[Sundowner]

Firstly, when I say ST potential I mean the best setup of stats/mastery trees/tactics there is (sorry if I did not make that clear earlier).

And again about qualitive analysis. We have other mdps, mara does not exist separately in the game, something should be buffed when it is underperforming in comparison to other classes why it is hard to understand? Here is plan, take mara in both brut/monstro and brut/sava specs, compare ST damage with other mdps (also make qualitive adjustments such as survibility, mobility, etc.) compare results. if both builds are underperforming, there is need for buff, if one is on level of other mdps (medial, of course), then this is viable build in current state of the balance and ST should be played that way. Giving further buffs in this case will only make mara overtuned in comparison to other mdps.

Yes this is hard, time-consuming and tedious task, but balance changes should be done this way, not only theorizing about what it should be. and ST potential does not mean only damage, it means st debuffs too.

Also don't forget that its team-game, so you should compare other classes abilities too. You can't take one hero and make changes disregarding tanks/other mdps/healers which could have abilities which fill in gaps.

To end, I am not antagonizing you or destro side, I believe in balance and if something is underperforming it should be buffed, but arguments should be based on tangible data not assumptions and vision of the several players out of thousands.

Also I never insulted you or called you lazy, just tried to present my arguments. have a nice day

Do you honestly think the arguments I'm making aren't based on comparison to other classes? How hard is that to understand. I literally pointed out to you how the Savagery Marauder is underperforming compared to other classes, and your response was to then flip-flop into further nonsensical points as you backtracked.

I have tested the damage numbers of multiple DPS classes. You havent have you? It's not a hard task, and it's not tedious. I'm telling you the output based on my expertise, and your lack of it.

You are arguing from a point of your own ignorance, and doubling down when being presented with logic. Your arguments have no substance, are off-topic, and show a complete lack of understand of the MDPS classes in this game.

Again, I already explained to you how in relation to many other classes, the Savagery Marauder has significant issues. If you want me to run numbers, I can do that all day long. They will support my overall point, as I've already explained to you by comparing relative debuff values between Mara ST debuffs and a variety of other classses AoE debuffs.

Again, I've had better conversations with my cat.

maybe show us results then? that's all I am asking, but you are busy talking to your cat I think.

Also, this topic is nonsense from the beginning, comparing ST burst of WL and SW to mara is hilarious at best. they are DIFFERENT classes and all classes have their good specs and sub-optimal specs. i.e. WL aoe spec is much weaker than maras (roughly similar damage with much more aoe utility of mara), SWs aoe impact is a joke. Some classes are good at something and some others excel in that, that is how class design is handled in ROR.

Also, if mastery tree description states something it does not mean that it should be the best and over-performing.

keep talking to your cat and continue disregarding on what stage the game is now in development and how balance between classes is handled by the dev team.

There is nothing to argue about, no more replies from me

[theoddone]

Interesting thread. Some clarification, TB nerf happened in t4 by torq when people were running around with 6-7k wounds.

The deadly clutch change happened in T2 or T3 with the justification that it was never supposed to leech pots and were supposed to match the tactic description. However, the leech healing from lifetaps was removed. Before it could leech all healing, and there is nothing in the tactic description saying it should not leech heal lifetaps. After this lifetap specs have been buffed a lot. So the defensive component of the tactic has been quite nerfed.

Both those changes should be reverted imo.

As for comparing mara to wl and msw. Mara does not have the same mobility or on-demand CC in ST spec. This means that its a lot easier predicting maras actions,
and even easier to shut down by tanks. Snares and CC hurts the mara a lot more compared to wl and msw. It also makes the class less forgiving and worse in pugstomping settings.

Another thing to consider with the mara is stat distribution. The class relies on certain tactics to be functional. That means that a ST mara should not run BF. This leads to having to compensate with gear to get enough str and secondary stat allocation suffer. The asw on the other hand gets more extra stats than imaginable.