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wargrimnir
Head Game Master
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Re: Next SW patch

Post#11 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:02 am

catholicism198 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:31 pm
wargrimnir wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:22 pm
UnspeakableOath wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:51 pm


Many of us have tried. We’ve received no response from the devs or any positive change.

I think this kind of frustration is what naturally happens when the development process asks for feedback, doesn’t acknowledge it, doesn’t explain or give any insight to changes, and continues to act counter to feedback.
We've received feedback that has been good, bad, overpowered, underpowered, ruined the class, delete the class, devs are stupid/incompetent/spiteful etc. Clearly people don't know what to think, and the angery bois are always going to be the loudest. So when we see there's good feedback mixed in with the bad, it's a sign there might be some significant exaggeration on how dead a class is. Personally I can't stand feedback that is wildly over the top, so I mostly roll my eyes and scroll on past. Bait threads like this one are prime to get locked and the poster warned, but hey when you only have one post on the forums I guess you're not losing much to get your "feedback" out there.

Some of you have developed a reputation for being incessant trolls, so even if you might have some hint of a constructive thought, I'm not remotely interested. There's plenty of other people out there who can hold a conversation without devolving to hyperbolic fallacy and troll baiting.
There has been tons of valid feedback from non-trolls.
Heck, even the most “experienced” of players have tried providing some, but like with all games/devs, suggestions, regardless of how valid or insightful they may be, will always fall on deaf ears.
They haven't fallen on deaf ears at all, what else would I be responding to? Big brain time. Maybe there's a slight difference between having your feedback listened to, and having your feedback implemented verbatim.
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Arbich
Posts: 657

Re: Next SW patch

Post#12 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:12 am

wargrimnir wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:22 pm
UnspeakableOath wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:51 pm
M0rw47h wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:42 pm
Maybe you should give proper feedback and do some proposals.
Many of us have tried. We’ve received no response from the devs or any positive change.

I think this kind of frustration is what naturally happens when the development process asks for feedback, doesn’t acknowledge it, doesn’t explain or give any insight to changes, and continues to act counter to feedback.
We've received feedback that has been good, bad, overpowered, underpowered, ruined the class, delete the class, devs are stupid/incompetent/spiteful etc. Clearly people don't know what to think, and the angery bois are always going to be the loudest. So when we see there's good feedback mixed in with the bad, it's a sign there might be some significant exaggeration on how dead a class is. Personally I can't stand feedback that is wildly over the top, so I mostly roll my eyes and scroll on past. Bait threads like this one are prime to get locked and the poster warned, but hey when you only have one post on the forums I guess you're not losing much to get your "feedback" out there.

Some of you have developed a reputation for being incessant trolls, so even if you might have some hint of a constructive thought, I'm not remotely interested. There's plenty of other people out there who can hold a conversation without devolving to hyperbolic fallacy and troll baiting.
The problem I have is, that I have no clue what the supposed role you (=devs) have in mind for the different classes. How they should perform in a broader scale and what role in grp/warband they should fulfil. I am especially confused by the SH (msh, to be specific). Its good that you still not go on an simply mirror each class (which would obviously the easiest balance solution), I really appreciate that.

A general overview what you (=devs) have in mind for every class would really help with the design of balance proposals.
Arbich-BW/Xanthippe-WP/Schnipsel-AM

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jonspidy
Posts: 85

Re: Next SW patch

Post#13 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 1:18 am

wargrimnir wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:02 am
catholicism198 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:31 pm
wargrimnir wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:22 pm


We've received feedback that has been good, bad, overpowered, underpowered, ruined the class, delete the class, devs are stupid/incompetent/spiteful etc. Clearly people don't know what to think, and the angery bois are always going to be the loudest. So when we see there's good feedback mixed in with the bad, it's a sign there might be some significant exaggeration on how dead a class is. Personally I can't stand feedback that is wildly over the top, so I mostly roll my eyes and scroll on past. Bait threads like this one are prime to get locked and the poster warned, but hey when you only have one post on the forums I guess you're not losing much to get your "feedback" out there.

Some of you have developed a reputation for being incessant trolls, so even if you might have some hint of a constructive thought, I'm not remotely interested. There's plenty of other people out there who can hold a conversation without devolving to hyperbolic fallacy and troll baiting.
There has been tons of valid feedback from non-trolls.
Heck, even the most “experienced” of players have tried providing some, but like with all games/devs, suggestions, regardless of how valid or insightful they may be, will always fall on deaf ears.
They haven't fallen on deaf ears at all, what else would I be responding to? Big brain time. Maybe there's a slight difference between having your feedback listened to, and having your feedback implemented verbatim.
Well with all the recent nerfs to order it kinda seems like it does fall on deaf ears. So many posts about trying to fix SW and WH's to make them more viable and instead of getting any sort of feedback, we're met with silence.

Countless posts of WH players trying to give ideas about making the class viable in large scale and instead are met with the riposte nerf. Even if it wasn't performing the way it was on "Live" someone decided to report it because chances are they died to it. Which is a kick in the teeth cause we've heard many times from the dev team that "This isn't live".

How many posts about GTTC being broken? Haven't heard anything in regards to fixing that skill, instead a GM who plays one comments something like "People over-hype GTTC". Could you imagine if Secrets said people over-hype pounce and cleave limb..?

And the whole "angery bois" thing.. yea some are trolls but some are players who are fed up with having their class being nerfed, not being considered viable, and being met with silence.
Vanhel - Knight Of the Blazing Sun
"The hammer is not the answer to every military problem, for even the mightiest of hammers will miss its mark if the opponent is wise enough not to wait around to get crushed."

UnspeakableOath
Posts: 23

Re: Next SW patch

Post#14 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:43 am

wargrimnir wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:22 pm
UnspeakableOath wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:51 pm
M0rw47h wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:42 pm
Maybe you should give proper feedback and do some proposals.
Many of us have tried. We’ve received no response from the devs or any positive change.

I think this kind of frustration is what naturally happens when the development process asks for feedback, doesn’t acknowledge it, doesn’t explain or give any insight to changes, and continues to act counter to feedback.
We've received feedback that has been good, bad, overpowered, underpowered, ruined the class, delete the class, devs are stupid/incompetent/spiteful etc. Clearly people don't know what to think, and the angery bois are always going to be the loudest. So when we see there's good feedback mixed in with the bad, it's a sign there might be some significant exaggeration on how dead a class is. Personally I can't stand feedback that is wildly over the top, so I mostly roll my eyes and scroll on past. Bait threads like this one are prime to get locked and the poster warned, but hey when you only have one post on the forums I guess you're not losing much to get your "feedback" out there.

Some of you have developed a reputation for being incessant trolls, so even if you might have some hint of a constructive thought, I'm not remotely interested. There's plenty of other people out there who can hold a conversation without devolving to hyperbolic fallacy and troll baiting.
Thanks for the reply.

Can we have some kind of roadmap or statement on what the intentions of the changes are so that we can tailor our expectations and give more focused feedback?

I understand that iterative changes on live software is a difficult process to track when you have hundreds or thousands of end users who all have different goals, levels of commitment, and diversity of stake in the outcome of the changes. I work as a consultant in my professional life providing support for exactly these kinds of business processes.

As I said in a previous post, help us help you. Give us some structure on providing feedback, your goals in this implementation, and what your expectations as developers are.

Also, as an aside, your communications are very...terse. Accusing players of being trolls and being hyperbolic doesn’t really help facilitate open lines of communication. My advice would be to ignore the trolls and overreactors, and respond to people who are earnestly trying to help.

I know this is a labor of love and not a commercial product, but facilitating healthy, actionable feedback is key to making this thing we all love and find value in actually work and grow.

Let’s work together.

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wargrimnir
Head Game Master
Posts: 6756
Contact:

Re: Next SW patch

Post#15 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:52 am

UnspeakableOath wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:43 am
wargrimnir wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:22 pm
UnspeakableOath wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:51 pm


Many of us have tried. We’ve received no response from the devs or any positive change.

I think this kind of frustration is what naturally happens when the development process asks for feedback, doesn’t acknowledge it, doesn’t explain or give any insight to changes, and continues to act counter to feedback.
We've received feedback that has been good, bad, overpowered, underpowered, ruined the class, delete the class, devs are stupid/incompetent/spiteful etc. Clearly people don't know what to think, and the angery bois are always going to be the loudest. So when we see there's good feedback mixed in with the bad, it's a sign there might be some significant exaggeration on how dead a class is. Personally I can't stand feedback that is wildly over the top, so I mostly roll my eyes and scroll on past. Bait threads like this one are prime to get locked and the poster warned, but hey when you only have one post on the forums I guess you're not losing much to get your "feedback" out there.

Some of you have developed a reputation for being incessant trolls, so even if you might have some hint of a constructive thought, I'm not remotely interested. There's plenty of other people out there who can hold a conversation without devolving to hyperbolic fallacy and troll baiting.
Thanks for the reply.

Can we have some kind of roadmap or statement on what the intentions of the changes are so that we can tailor our expectations and give more focused feedback?

I understand that iterative changes on live software is a difficult process to track when you have hundreds or thousands of end users who all have different goals, levels of commitment, and diversity of stake in the outcome of the changes. I work as a consultant in my professional life providing support for exactly these kinds of business processes.

As I said in a previous post, help us help you. Give us some structure on providing feedback, your goals in this implementation, and what your expectations as developers are.

Also, as an aside, your communications are very...terse. Accusing players of being trolls and being hyperbolic doesn’t really help facilitate open lines of communication. My advice would be to ignore the trolls and overreactors, and respond to people who are earnestly trying to help.

I know this is a labor of love and not a commercial product, but facilitating healthy, actionable feedback is key to making this thing we all love and find value in actually work and grow.

Let’s work together.
We have enough help. People want what they want, and everyone wants a say on balance. At the end of the day these things are planned out internally using concepts and ideas drawn from the community or hashed out internally. This isn't a community project, you're the result of the project development going as well as it has. This is very much a closed project with a pretty tight lid on letting people join the team. We're not looking for, or interested in, professional consultants trying to bridge a gap that we intentionally created.
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[email protected] for exploits and cheaters.
grimnir.me Some old WAR blog

Tillbeast
Posts: 60

Re: Next SW patch

Post#16 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:41 am

Problem with some classes is that I think some classes were not designed for large scale combat and specifically the aoe style of play. Classes like WH, WE and SW are better at small scale combat and the SW will kite most classes indefinetely which you cannot do in a city. Putting the end game gear behind a city has caused players of these classes to ask for buffs to be able to compete. Obvious problem here is if you improve there city capability and not adjust there small warfare abilities you create an overpowered class, who would play a bright wizard if a shadow warrior had equal dps in a city and could solo as well it can. Not all classes can do the every job and if you want a character thats good in cities dont roll a sw/we/wh etc, roll them for your solo, small scale ganking toon.

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catholicism198
Posts: 1023

Re: Next SW patch

Post#17 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:24 am

Aza and nath were great devs.

Sulorie
Posts: 4926

Re: Next SW patch

Post#18 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:35 am

Tillbeast wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:41 am
Not all classes can do the every job and if you want a character thats good in cities dont roll a sw/we/wh etc, roll them for your solo, small scale ganking toon.
Can't complain about WE in city.
Dying is no option.

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Acidic
Posts: 1747
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Re: Next SW patch

Post#19 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:57 am

wargrimnir wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:52 am
UnspeakableOath wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:43 am
wargrimnir wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:22 pm


We've received feedback that has been good, bad, overpowered, underpowered, ruined the class, delete the class, devs are stupid/incompetent/spiteful etc. Clearly people don't know what to think, and the angery bois are always going to be the loudest. So when we see there's good feedback mixed in with the bad, it's a sign there might be some significant exaggeration on how dead a class is. Personally I can't stand feedback that is wildly over the top, so I mostly roll my eyes and scroll on past. Bait threads like this one are prime to get locked and the poster warned, but hey when you only have one post on the forums I guess you're not losing much to get your "feedback" out there.

Some of you have developed a reputation for being incessant trolls, so even if you might have some hint of a constructive thought, I'm not remotely interested. There's plenty of other people out there who can hold a conversation without devolving to hyperbolic fallacy and troll baiting.
Thanks for the reply.

Can we have some kind of roadmap or statement on what the intentions of the changes are so that we can tailor our expectations and give more focused feedback?

I understand that iterative changes on live software is a difficult process to track when you have hundreds or thousands of end users who all have different goals, levels of commitment, and diversity of stake in the outcome of the changes. I work as a consultant in my professional life providing support for exactly these kinds of business processes.

As I said in a previous post, help us help you. Give us some structure on providing feedback, your goals in this implementation, and what your expectations as developers are.

Also, as an aside, your communications are very...terse. Accusing players of being trolls and being hyperbolic doesn’t really help facilitate open lines of communication. My advice would be to ignore the trolls and overreactors, and respond to people who are earnestly trying to help.

I know this is a labor of love and not a commercial product, but facilitating healthy, actionable feedback is key to making this thing we all love and find value in actually work and grow.

Let’s work together.
We have enough help. People want what they want, and everyone wants a say on balance. At the end of the day these things are planned out internally using concepts and ideas drawn from the community or hashed out internally. This isn't a community project, you're the result of the project development going as well as it has. This is very much a closed project with a pretty tight lid on letting people join the team. We're not looking for, or interested in, professional consultants trying to bridge a gap that we intentionally created.
Think after seeing the different models of balance approaches the current one feels the least invasive and most drama free. Would prefer other modules but have to say the one you have now seems to be stablest

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normanis
Posts: 581
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Re: Next SW patch

Post#20 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:21 am

when sw was threat for 1 week its get complitly nerfed after that. so sorc/magus/bw feel not gealous that there is also sw who also can hit hard.

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