Debate about why Order is how it is.

[Stophy22]

man a lot of people got mad at my solution to GTDC... IF a tank gets pulled you should be happy it wasnt a healer or dps. Then you should taunt when you land or in air. But regardless of this it was an option for counter play. Choppa uses GTDC (obvious arms swinging tornado animation) target and taunt. If you can't do that idk how you can interrupt resses, group heals, or anything else worth being interrupted.

Huge destro advantage is GTDC? Huge order advantage is rampage, you shouldn't change 1 without changing the other.

I think you're looking at too broad of a perspective (for this thread, which is only about cities). GTDC pulls on its first tick and is undefendable - this means there is 0 counterplay to losing at least 1 (assuming the Choppas don't "exploit" the two pull bug) player on Order per Choppa per pull. A normal composition will consist of 2 Choppas this means that every 20 s Order will be guaranteed to lose 2(4)/24 of their WB with no counterplay; depending on what class gets pulled it breaks down to delaying Order's win condition like this: BW ~9s, Knight 90s, Slayer 36s, WL 36s, WH ~16s and relate this to Destro where their longest win condition morale time is less than 60s on a MSH for M4 AND they will have M3 on all BO by ~20s. Losing a portion of your WB to situations you can prevent is totally acceptable and good design but when there is 0 counterplay and one side essentially will always have a numbers and morale advantage (even more so than is intended) due to pressing a button with 0 necessary thought into positioning or whathave you is just bad design.

Compare this to Rampage where in Cities its a pretty good skill but not game busting at all (unlike other facets where Rampage is busted af). They both need to be changed in different ways for different reasons but please don't use a false equivalency to try and justify GTDC busted state in current cities - or maybe you were just ignorant to the situation surrounding this one imabalance.

Ah and then there is you, who thinks that when gtdc is used it is used perfectly and without flaw and it will pull x class and there is no counter play! Mana if you can taunt GTDC to stop it, and 1 person gets pulled then that's pretty okay, imo, esp if said person is a tank or class with aoe detaunt who is being guarded because unless everyone assists that pulled class what good is the free immunity. The two pull thing if that's a bug should be bug trackered and fixed I agree there. But you calling rampage not game busting is just absurd or ignorant lol.

Also you say, "losing a portion of your warband is okay to situations you can prevent but 0 counter play..." Guess what? taunt is counterplay to GTDC.

Biased aside lets break it down, shall we?

Rampage allows you to break thru all parry and block of enemy and tanks guarding enemy for 10-20seconds. 30second CD. 5 pt ability.
Counterplay: Shatter enchant, Aoe slows, whatever else you wanna add. (single target punt?)
Argument: Shatter enchant can be parried, Aoe slows can be broken out of with immunity skill, you can walk back to whatever target after being punted... etc.
Conclusion: Counter play is there whether you choose to accept it or not. It might not always work(shatter enchant getting parried) but its there. Lets look at GTDC

GTDC allows you to deal big aoe dmg and cc/pull targets who are kiting within a 40ft range. effect lats 6 seconds, 20 second CD. 13 pt ability.
Counterplay: KD, Ranged KD, Taunt (no immunity required), punts as well, and whatever else you wanna add
Argument: Undefendable so itll at least pull someone, apparently you can jump to bug it to pull 2 so that should be bug trackered, and thus shouldn't be an argument point when done so. Order doesn't have tools to kite it out so it needs to be fixed.
Conclusion Counter play is there again whether you choose to be ignorant or not. It might not always be available, immunities might be up or taunt might be on cd or whatever. But if you're that afraid of it tanks can charge into it and KD or taunt mid pull (because RoR works like that).

My point was you shouldn't change gtdc without changing ramapge. And there already is some counter play available for what everyone seems to deem as not able to be countered, spreading knowledge.
Your point is rampage is fine and gtdc is absurdly broken with 0 counter play. I think that's silly.
From what I just said I really don't see an issue over glaring rampage or gtdc. Unless I am wrong in someway, feel free to educate me. Both are good abilities, possibly too good, but you don't change one without changing the other that's absurd/ignorant. Making GTDC defendable is fine, but something has to happen to rampage. Like it or dislike it you cant keep looking at warhammer one-sided, isn't healthy to the community. I have no issue with your argument other than the fact where it argues that only choppas are an issue. Preposterous.

Spoiler:

Also this thread is about why order is the way it is, who deemed it about cities? It started out as, "people play chosen cause they look badass and don't play knights because they have feather hats"

[Manatikik]

man a lot of people got mad at my solution to GTDC... IF a tank gets pulled you should be happy it wasnt a healer or dps. Then you should taunt when you land or in air. But regardless of this it was an option for counter play. Choppa uses GTDC (obvious arms swinging tornado animation) target and taunt. If you can't do that idk how you can interrupt resses, group heals, or anything else worth being interrupted.

Huge destro advantage is GTDC? Huge order advantage is rampage, you shouldn't change 1 without changing the other.

I think you're looking at too broad of a perspective (for this thread, which is only about cities). GTDC pulls on its first tick and is undefendable - this means there is 0 counterplay to losing at least 1 (assuming the Choppas don't "exploit" the two pull bug) player on Order per Choppa per pull. A normal composition will consist of 2 Choppas this means that every 20 s Order will be guaranteed to lose 2(4)/24 of their WB with no counterplay; depending on what class gets pulled it breaks down to delaying Order's win condition like this: BW ~9s, Knight 90s, Slayer 36s, WL 36s, WH ~16s and relate this to Destro where their longest win condition morale time is less than 60s on a MSH for M4 AND they will have M3 on all BO by ~20s. Losing a portion of your WB to situations you can prevent is totally acceptable and good design but when there is 0 counterplay and one side essentially will always have a numbers and morale advantage (even more so than is intended) due to pressing a button with 0 necessary thought into positioning or whathave you is just bad design.

Compare this to Rampage where in Cities its a pretty good skill but not game busting at all (unlike other facets where Rampage is busted af). They both need to be changed in different ways for different reasons but please don't use a false equivalency to try and justify GTDC busted state in current cities - or maybe you were just ignorant to the situation surrounding this one imabalance.

Ah and then there is you, who thinks that when gtdc is used it is used perfectly and without flaw and it will pull x class and there is no counter play! Mana if you can taunt GTDC to stop it, and 1 person gets pulled then that's pretty okay, imo, esp if said person is a tank or class with aoe detaunt who is being guarded because unless everyone assists that pulled class what good is the free immunity. The two pull thing if that's a bug should be bug trackered and fixed I agree there. But you calling rampage not game busting is just absurd or ignorant lol.

Also you say, "losing a portion of your warband is okay to situations you can prevent but 0 counter play..." Guess what? taunt is counterplay to GTDC.

Biased aside lets break it down, shall we?

Rampage allows you to break thru all parry and block of enemy and tanks guarding enemy for 10-20seconds. 30second CD. 5 pt ability.
Counterplay: Shatter enchant, Aoe slows, whatever else you wanna add. (single target punt?)
Argument: Shatter enchant can be parried, Aoe slows can be broken out of with immunity skill, you can walk back to whatever target after being punted... etc.
Conclusion: Counter play is there whether you choose to accept it or not. It might not always work(shatter enchant getting parried) but its there. Lets look at GTDC

GTDC allows you to deal big aoe dmg and cc/pull targets who are kiting within a 40ft range. effect lats 6 seconds, 20 second CD. 13 pt ability.
Counterplay: KD, Ranged KD, Taunt (no immunity required), punts as well, and whatever else you wanna add
Argument: Undefendable so itll at least pull someone, apparently you can jump to bug it to pull 2 so that should be bug trackered, and thus shouldn't be an argument point when done so. Order doesn't have tools to kite it out so it needs to be fixed.
Conclusion Counter play is there again whether you choose to be ignorant or not. It might not always be available, immunities might be up or taunt might be on cd or whatever. But if you're that afraid of it tanks can charge into it and KD or taunt mid pull (because RoR works like that).

My point was you shouldn't change gtdc without changing ramapge. And there already is some counter play available for what everyone seems to deem as not able to be countered, spreading knowledge.
Your point is rampage is fine and gtdc is absurdly broken with 0 counter play. I think that's silly.
From what I just said I really don't see an issue over glaring rampage or gtdc. Unless I am wrong in someway, feel free to educate me. Both are good abilities, possibly too good, but you don't change one without changing the other that's absurd/ignorant. Making GTDC defendable is fine, but something has to happen to rampage. Like it or dislike it you cant keep looking at warhammer one-sided, isn't healthy to the community. I have no issue with your argument other than the fact where it argues that only choppas are an issue. Preposterous.

Spoiler:

Also this thread is about why order is the way it is, who deemed it about cities? It started out as, "people play chosen cause they look badass and don't play knights because they have feather hats"

You seem to be ignoring the very large point that GTDC has no counterplay to the first (2) pull(s). That is where bad design is. And in what world are we pretending it will get interrupted perfectly but Destro can't assist down the target that gets pulled? Thats just lame duck argument my man. The only changes GTDC needs are all pretty apparent and fair - defendable, doesnt pull first tick to allow counter play, and remove the double pull exploit. And saying "theres counterplay" is disingenuous because the issue is the first tick pull where there is no counterplay.

You, as well as most people, have a very bad misconception about Rampage, and its effectivenss in Cities. Rampage requires Yellow to be effective (red makes it half duration), it takes ~5s to hit yellow and hit rampage, then you are back to 0 rage, and it takes ~10 seconds to build up to Red (where you start doing meaningful damage), so in reality it takes ~15s from when a clash begins before a Slayer starts taking advantage of Rampage and by that time Destro can drop 10k morale bombs on top of the Order frontline due to the superior morale game (which is the balance factor in case a lot of people are ignorant; Order is better outside morales where as Destro are Morale monsters). Also during the 10s of buildup there are 8-10 Shatter's on Destro that can be used with 0 CD (hello Waaagh and Chop Fasta') to get rid of Rampage; a much more realistic Counterplay and window. Though I won't try to pretend I don't beleive Rampage needs a nerf but it affects Cities far less than GTDC (Rampage just needs to be a 10/30 ability that doesn't Exhaust imo).

Also pretending i'm only looking at the game from one viewpoint when I am just discussing one specific thing is funny to say the least; might want to take a look in the mirror and really think about your viewpoints. But yea i definitly thought this was Bomblings big ol' City thread; though i stand by the notion that trying to balance anything but 6v6 or Cities is just silly.

[Sarnai]

Spoiler:

I'll be honest, this thread has got me 90% towards quitting playing (I won't be missed, no one can have my stuff), because i only want to play order but its so frustrating how bad we (collectively) play. This post is going to be about the orvr zones.

Pushing mid zones and then putting no effort into the next zone, fighting at WCs instead of fighting for BO's/ranking up keeps, not putting full warbands on posterns during attacks and defences or managing to get people there who then fomo back to mid in dribs and drabs, so many people afk leeching renown in zones putting in no/minimal effort but not actually helping, some of these people don't even have the manners to get off their horses.

2 days ago BFP, Gnol Baraz finally taken after several hours of failed 'pushes', 180 order in zone, 80 destro... majority of order chase destro to WC and stay there, no one takes responsibility for capping the BOs in the badlands, 1fg destro recaps the undefended keep, took over 20 minutes to finally lock the zone down, **** embarrassing. This clusterfuck is becoming the normal as minimal effort is put in by majority of faction.

Order blob pushes when it has overwhelming numbers but doesn't learn, employs no good practice so when its anything like even numbers (and there I think we struggle due to class composition and certain class mechanics (GtdC)) there is no one taking responsibility for things like defending posterns while working on an inner to stop reinforcements getting in and virtually no one gives any consideration of the importance of BO control, another example Praag yesterday, order had twice the number and were all fighting over MS, destro just held the other 3 BOs all the time I was watching.

Very few people follow WB leaders, so very few people step up to lead, meaning most WBs in zones are pugs with no direction or being led by a leader who is trying but less than 50% of the wb listen so that gets frustrating, the few organised WBs appear to make a difference but often there seems to be too few of them to take ownership of the battlefield elements that require ownership.

Here I too am part of the problem, tried to lead pug WBs and got frustrated with (most) people not following so mostly just try to keep groups fixed and make sure people are at objective, joined a guild and had a few good rvr WBs and couple of good 3fg city premades but didn't like the guild politics or discord so left, I also don't attempt to join groups that require discord because I'm old and grumpy (that one is totally on me).

I think things like this, that happen all too frequently, are some of the biggest signs that Order is far more full of casuals than people want to believe. And I noticed this even before the peon wave. Destro would have group moving to BOs in the next zone before the previous one would be locked, ready for the flip to get the supply runs going while Order would just be letting themselves get farmed outside their WC by half their number, completely oblivious. Caledor and Eataine being the most glaring examples of this, but at the opening of a zone it's just 'run straight out of the warcamp and fight what's in front of you until someone says 'ram!' in chat.' I've seen Destro with 100% aao but all the BOs and leveling their keep uncontested because Order isn't doing anything but fighting at the nearest BO and usually doing a terrible job of it.

And all this just has to do with the mindset. Casuals are more numerous in Order, despite the faction overall being slightly outnumbered, and it makes for a tough time for the relatively few players trying to get something organized and going. And unfortunately, I nor anyone else should really be telling these people they're 'doing it wrong' or something similar : I'm not going to tell people who only log on sporadically for some random, fun rvr for an hour or two amidst their real world lives not to come here and do what makes them happy. LIttle spats over 'I'm here for pvp, I don't care about objectives' and 'sitting on flags is boring' are fairly common in Order chat.

All in all, to the quoted poster, yeah it's frustrating and it's great you've tried to lead warbands yourself and get people organized. But you chose Order, and this is just how we are.

Another way of saying this; Destro is too try-hard! Destro is way too full of easy mode warband crawlers that can't do anything without a zerg. Casual vs. Tryhard Which one are you? (proverbial)

Nowhere did I accuse Destro of being 'try-hard' or zergers. Might want to take off those biased glasses, everything I said about Destro was actually complimentary.

[poisonedshotz]

Order players seem to think that spamming ground aoe's at the entrance of a door is skillful, no wonder they get **** on in city

[Stophy22]

Spoiler:

I think you're looking at too broad of a perspective (for this thread, which is only about cities). GTDC pulls on its first tick and is undefendable - this means there is 0 counterplay to losing at least 1 (assuming the Choppas don't "exploit" the two pull bug) player on Order per Choppa per pull. A normal composition will consist of 2 Choppas this means that every 20 s Order will be guaranteed to lose 2(4)/24 of their WB with no counterplay; depending on what class gets pulled it breaks down to delaying Order's win condition like this: BW ~9s, Knight 90s, Slayer 36s, WL 36s, WH ~16s and relate this to Destro where their longest win condition morale time is less than 60s on a MSH for M4 AND they will have M3 on all BO by ~20s. Losing a portion of your WB to situations you can prevent is totally acceptable and good design but when there is 0 counterplay and one side essentially will always have a numbers and morale advantage (even more so than is intended) due to pressing a button with 0 necessary thought into positioning or whathave you is just bad design.

Compare this to Rampage where in Cities its a pretty good skill but not game busting at all (unlike other facets where Rampage is busted af). They both need to be changed in different ways for different reasons but please don't use a false equivalency to try and justify GTDC busted state in current cities - or maybe you were just ignorant to the situation surrounding this one imabalance.

Ah and then there is you, who thinks that when gtdc is used it is used perfectly and without flaw and it will pull x class and there is no counter play! Mana if you can taunt GTDC to stop it, and 1 person gets pulled then that's pretty okay, imo, esp if said person is a tank or class with aoe detaunt who is being guarded because unless everyone assists that pulled class what good is the free immunity. The two pull thing if that's a bug should be bug trackered and fixed I agree there. But you calling rampage not game busting is just absurd or ignorant lol.

Also you say, "losing a portion of your warband is okay to situations you can prevent but 0 counter play..." Guess what? taunt is counterplay to GTDC.

Biased aside lets break it down, shall we?

Rampage allows you to break thru all parry and block of enemy and tanks guarding enemy for 10-20seconds. 30second CD. 5 pt ability.
Counterplay: Shatter enchant, Aoe slows, whatever else you wanna add. (single target punt?)
Argument: Shatter enchant can be parried, Aoe slows can be broken out of with immunity skill, you can walk back to whatever target after being punted... etc.
Conclusion: Counter play is there whether you choose to accept it or not. It might not always work(shatter enchant getting parried) but its there. Lets look at GTDC

GTDC allows you to deal big aoe dmg and cc/pull targets who are kiting within a 40ft range. effect lats 6 seconds, 20 second CD. 13 pt ability.
Counterplay: KD, Ranged KD, Taunt (no immunity required), punts as well, and whatever else you wanna add
Argument: Undefendable so itll at least pull someone, apparently you can jump to bug it to pull 2 so that should be bug trackered, and thus shouldn't be an argument point when done so. Order doesn't have tools to kite it out so it needs to be fixed.
Conclusion Counter play is there again whether you choose to be ignorant or not. It might not always be available, immunities might be up or taunt might be on cd or whatever. But if you're that afraid of it tanks can charge into it and KD or taunt mid pull (because RoR works like that).

My point was you shouldn't change gtdc without changing ramapge. And there already is some counter play available for what everyone seems to deem as not able to be countered, spreading knowledge.
Your point is rampage is fine and gtdc is absurdly broken with 0 counter play. I think that's silly.
From what I just said I really don't see an issue over glaring rampage or gtdc. Unless I am wrong in someway, feel free to educate me. Both are good abilities, possibly too good, but you don't change one without changing the other that's absurd/ignorant. Making GTDC defendable is fine, but something has to happen to rampage. Like it or dislike it you cant keep looking at warhammer one-sided, isn't healthy to the community. I have no issue with your argument other than the fact where it argues that only choppas are an issue. Preposterous.

Spoiler:

Also this thread is about why order is the way it is, who deemed it about cities? It started out as, "people play chosen cause they look badass and don't play knights because they have feather hats"

You seem to be ignoring the very large point that GTDC has no counterplay to the first (2) pull(s).

There was no ignorance from my end, I was trying to be informative. The very first post was to explain that you do have some form of counter play, it was informative. You didn't like that information, it wasn't good enough for you. Oh well.

Having more range than GTDC pull range, and having an interrupt, effectively canceling the ability. This is counter play. You can't get pulled from 65feet. If they activate the ability when you're within range then that's incorrect positioning on your part.

Also the way you argue is there is only one way to use this ability, the perfect best way. I.E. you can only use rampage 15 seconds into a fight, lol. Pulling one deftard KOTBS who can taunt mid-air or do any form of disruptive CC. You also have 2 ranged KD's to take advantage of on your side.

Again I haven't disagreed with your idea of making it defendable but if you think your changes are just and qualified, without any happening to slayers, idk where you get off. This is a 13point ability that choppas have to invest into a tree to get. Slayers invest 5 for the ability in question. It seems like your argument is, "If you think I'm wrong you're ignorant." which is a silly mindset to have.

Also yes in a good city fight its the morale bomb that will break the tide, but we are talking about abilities and how they preform. You're too ignorant to admit Taunt is effective counter play to the channel since its not what you want to do, and you don't want your tanks to get pulled to knockdown the target either so that's out the window. What would please you sir Fenryl? Shall we make it defend-able because you can't adapt? Shall we also make rampage stronger in cities since you think anything short of morale bomb is incorrect play? What else do we change to your preferred style? I would love to know...

Spoiler:

Stop mentioning more than one pull and bug tracker it, unless you really think it isn't an issue.Or maybe its already bug trackers and you just want to complain :\

[Manatikik]

There was no ignorance from my end, I was trying to be informative. The very first post was to explain that you do have some form of counter play, it was informative. You didn't like that information, it wasn't good enough for you. Oh well.

No, I was being informative with actual information; and i already debunked your whole "counterplay" because you can't interrupt the first undefendable pull (which is 2). You are simply trying to (poorly) defend a shitty ability mechanic.

Having more range than GTDC pull range, and having an interrupt, effectively canceling the ability. This is counter play. You can't get pulled from 65feet. If they activate the ability when you're within range then that's incorrect positioning on your part.

This argument doesn't hold up due to the fact that "poor positioning" means you can never actually fight; yes i agree if you are kiting out and you get pulled you are out of position but weirdly enough this entire game isn't centered around kiting around at 65ft+ range for combat in Cities.

Also the way you argue is there is only one way to use this ability, the perfect best way. I.E. you can only use rampage 15 seconds into a fight, lol. Pulling one deftard KOTBS who can taunt mid-air or do any form of disruptive CC. You also have 2 ranged KD's to take advantage of on your side.

Actually, you were the one who started bringing the perfect gameplay argument, i just kept using your logic. Also are you seriously trying to advocate getting RKD (ranged SW viable lul) with BW and having the Choppa ignited as a viable counterplay instead of just advocating taunt/crushing advance/vicious slash? Wtf kinda logic is that...



Again I haven't disagreed with your idea of making it defendable but if you think your changes are just and qualified, without any happening to slayers, idk where you get off. This is a 13point ability that choppas have to invest into a tree to get. Slayers invest 5 for the ability in question. It seems like your argument is, "If you think I'm wrong you're ignorant." which is a silly mindset to have.

Except i posted the Rampage nerf i think it needs and never once defended it being balanced for all play just that GTDC is a real problem in its current form in Cities where as Rampage is less of one and has actual counterplay designed into it for Organized City play. And theres a difference between me and thinking you being wrong and you being ignorant - you just happen to be both, happily it seems.


Also yes in a good city fight its the morale bomb that will break the tide, but we are talking about abilities and how they preform.

Weirdly enough you can't discuss balance in one theater and ignore other factors of that theater (ie how strong something is in City is directly related to how it affects the Morale game which is the Win Condition for both realms).



You're too ignorant to admit Taunt is effective counter play to the channel since its not what you want to do, and you don't want your tanks to get pulled to knockdown the target either so that's out the window.

Except the first tick is when the first pull happens and you can't taunt that out? That's literally the whole crux of this argument that you don't seem to grasp. Every other tick is counterable and well designed (even if i think it should be defendable). Much like how magnet/rift isn't instant so you can counter it i don't think GTDC's first tick should pull but wait and use 1.5s intervals so you get the same amount of pulls but still has counter play to the first pull (even if 1.5s in a WB fight is quick reactions).



What would please you sir Fenryl? Shall we make it defend-able because you can't adapt? Shall we also make rampage stronger in cities since you think anything short of morale bomb is incorrect play? What else do we change to your preferred style? I would love to know...

IDK bro playing gimp'd and still winning 90%+ of my cities with /5 is working fine for me. I just think if you're going to discuss balance you should do it in good faith and not discuss things that are obviously out of your depth. And what's with this weird obsession that I don't think Rampage should be nerfed when I have advocated for it not only in this thread but in the past in general?




Stop mentioning more than one pull and bug tracker it, unless you really think it isn't an issue.Or maybe its already bug trackers and you just want to complain :\

At this point for how long its been on tracker you have to assume its a Feature and play around it as so. Just like how every Destro would exploit Stage 2 of Cities for ~2 months and position ahead of time - you just had to deal with it and play around it. Unless it gets changed there is no reason not to at least discuss its affect on balance.

[DiMakss]

Let me explain:

Order frontline - 5 tanks, 7 mdps

Order backline - 40 bw, 30 engi, 70 dps am, 10 sw, 3 rdps kobs

---------------------------------------
Destro frontline - no comments:

Destro backline - 1/10 of frontline

[Stophy22]

I can’t help you man, you’re very stubborn and stuck in a pretty shitty mindset. Justify what you want. If someone has a 6 second ability and can only pull one person with it because it’s interrupted I don’t see why you’re whining. There are counter play options you just refuse to use them for no reason I can find out. Maybe they’re not viable enough for you, but that’s the fault of yourself.

Keep /5 shitting on people, I’m proud of you! just unimpressed by how close minded you are. ESP as a veteran player who knows as much as you do.

I’m unwilling to derail bomblings topic any further. Make a suggestion if you want to talk about it further. I can’t waste my time talking to you. You win, I lose!

[Mordd]

I have a pile of 20+ melee in front of me with a couple of choppa in the middle. Who am I going to assist to get the ones target that is doing GTtC? How does that even matter when it pulls on the first tic? Im pulled and dead before I could interrupt it. since its undefendable it pulls tanks every bit as effective as a level 1 BW.

You are doing nothing more than making excuses to hold onto a huge destro advantage. You setup strawman arguments that arent realistic even in organized city fights, let alone the chaos of keeps and forts.

Choppa pulls you. You taunt, challenge, call out on voice or use targeted emote to let teammates know you need /assist. Range disarm comes in. You knock back or knock down and focus target down.

Next target.

-
-

I played live for 5 years. From server launch to server close down. Guild warbands three times a week, once a week guild training, twice a week guild pre-made party dungeon crawl to get coordination going. Setup strawnman arguments? We didn't have friendly dev ear back then, once imbalance struck with a patch you had to adapt for weeks or months before next change. Develop new ways to counter fotm tactic. And use different tactics and setups according to what ppl wanted to play and where you played. Roaming wb, bombing wb, range assist, ST pain train, shield wall+pouncing for Moonblob bomb warbands, constant flanking and positioning, teams of WHs operating behind enemy lines and coordinated on voice... Noone wanted to roam and loose so we tried out new things, mostly because mindless zerging got boring real quick. Hardly anyone in my guild xrealmed (8h xrealm lock was a blessing after months of mailbox wars and scenario afks) , if you wanted to play other faction you did that on another server (I had mains on KN and des on Badlands ).

Huge des advantage? Really? If you can't use your silences, disarms, slow downs, CD increasers and other CC in semi organised manner blame's on you.

You illustrate my point. You are talking organized WB vs pug destro and you are talking city only.

First off even in most pug for one its not going to be 1 tank pulled. it will be many melee. If it is just one tank you will be knocked down before you can do anything. in a perfect WB yeah you very well may live though that vs a pug. In a pug WB vs pug, you are dead 9/10.

Now. This thread gos back to why are there so few order tanks and as a player trying to play an order tank I explained how in most situations, zerg vs zerg, zerg standoff in or around a keep order tanks are just fodder for choppa pulls. I have not seen 1 argument that counters that.

[Mordd]

Ah and then there is you, who thinks that when gtdc is used it is used perfectly and without flaw and it will pull x class and there is no counter play! Mana if you can taunt GTDC to stop it, and 1 person gets pulled then that's pretty okay, imo, esp if said person is a tank or class with aoe detaunt who is being guarded because unless everyone assists that pulled class what good is the free immunity. The two pull thing if that's a bug should be bug trackered and fixed I agree there. But you calling rampage not game busting is just absurd or ignorant lol.

You talk about GTtC being used perfectly, but your excuse is if 3 or more order all do their job perfectly only the tank should die, if only 1 tank was pulled, which is unlikely.

So you dont expect your choppa to play well, but the order facing him all have to and the tank will normally still die in the process and all you have done is broken the choppas channel.

Do you even read your excuses?