Debate about why Order is how it is.

[wonshot]

Im amazed you bothered putting it down like that Dan, but I respect your effort on that post. #Micdrop. However Order still have some advantages no matter how grim we paint the picture, and when those Order advantages are put in competitive hands Order will pull wins and feel hard to face for destro, lets not forget that

Now speaking about being organized on Order realm, ill probably overshare my experiences here:

Started out with Deep and Dry under Sacrx, previously worldfirst largescale titles in several games, the guy's leading can't be questioned! Back 2years ago in the conq era. Despite the results that guild still struggled to break a 3FG curse. Yes it was very strict in terms of classes and preformance and that rules out alot of recruitment, but there was no drive from Order-realm to join and be part of a succesful warband.

Joined VII in the buildup phase and the guild went from pug macroleading to being a competitive force trying to prep for 24v24 city fighting by practising and fighting other warband guilds in offzones and slowly but steadily bult a full warband roster. Internal turmoil and people loseing interest created a crack in the guild and all the year long efforts went down the drain as the guild hit the 3fullgroup curse again, mainly as a result of lack of interest from the rest of the realm to join and be competitive/not skilled enough.

So Thundercats now. More lax on the recruitment and an approach of letting newcomers in and help building them up. but just as much as people come in, people leave again and hello for the 3rd time 3fullgroupcurse. Not only is the quality more questionable, the pool of people to recruit from is now way bigger, however the interest still the same. 3fullgroup curse or accept clickers, keyboardturners and clueless peon'eers and help them catch up to years of warband experience.

So where amn I going with this?
Ive seen CNTK around lately, a guild that used to be a powerhouse for warbandplay, I see Beavers and VII around asking for fill to their warband events, New guilds have come and tried their luck, heck even some destro guilds like Lutz and Gitbane have come to Order, but went back home to destro.

Ive had experiences where a single 6man + pugs in cities could give some of these warband guilds a run for their money, on the warbandguilds homesoil (credit to them ofc!) ive experienced picking up fillers from alliance and lfg where the absolute minimum requirement of possitioning as asked for and assisting is just not met, and it has lead me to rather want to pug than join as a premade to lower my own and my enemies expectation when I face them in city, simply because forming and getting a GOOD Order warband together is beond frustrating. The quality of players are such a coinflip and the drive to improve is just not to be found, people rather want to stick to their old half empty guilds and live in the shadow of themselves than form a new and effective guild, or continue playing underperforming classes and accept the puglife is my general impression from two years of trying to be competitive on Order.

So here I go, ill probably setup yet an other 24v24 practise tonight on our event to face PnP and try help the newcomers improve, just like last week. And I am by nomeans expecting to win, but simply just to practise some movement, assisting and basics.

[emiliorv]

-If a class has sub par performing lines, they need a buff
-If numbers show certain classes are less in population versus others, they need a buff

looks like Engi is overpopulated and sub par at same time...so how could it be?? how can a class be sub-performing and overpopulated at same time?? means that order players like to play sub-par classes??

-If the realm overall is suffering in certain instances like Order losing majority of the city, it’s admin/Dev responsibility to find the culprit with their internal data.

order had won all the forts that i have played in the last 2-3 weeks (not much forts due to my low playtime), mostly destro atacking fort...so that means that destro is sub-par??

Yes, some destro classes such as mSH need a tone down as we can make any alt mSH to test and they ARE overtuned.

Any order class is overtuned?? lets suposse that mSH is overtuned (i really dont see a high population of mSHs...) that means that the whole faction is performing better??

Of course as a Developer you can’t force people to play certain classes. Players overall aren’t stupid

But order is plenty of ppl playing (supossed) sub-par classes...what are you calling them??

Engy have to cast the pull where Magus can do instant pulls

This is literally a LIE => magus rift is 1 sec casted spell, SAME as engi magnet

You’ll start we see much more balanced city sieges and can do small adjustments time to time.

You catn recall for REALM BALANCE until have some any kind of solid data of the % classes who queue to city and how they queue (solo/6man/12/full wb/etc).

its not a realm balance problem if you lose a city instance because your wb have only 3 tanks or 5 healers...in that situation dont mind if IB is sup-par to BG.

Order loses more population to destro as they get frustrated and don’t get high RR

Playing with high AAO gives much more RR, over 80% aao you get 1RP for kill....a total mess. Being underpopulated gives you more RP.

While Destro get higher RR

Again, this is a LIE => underpopulated realm get more RP, for sure if you lost a zone lock get lower RP but get much more for kills

get Royal Crests much, much easier with larger win percentage

This is not a realm issue, its a 24 Vs 24 => you will get more royals if your wb win your instance, look for another 23 who wanna win to join your wb. so easy like that.

[courtsdad1]

Im amazed you bothered putting it down like that Dan, but I respect your effort on that post. #Micdrop. However Order still have some advantages no matter how grim we paint the picture, and when those Order advantages are put in competitive hands Order will pull wins and feel hard to face for destro, lets not forget that

Now speaking about being organized on Order realm, ill probably overshare my experiences here:

Started out with Deep and Dry under Sacrx, previously worldfirst largescale titles in several games, the guy's leading can't be questioned! Back 2years ago in the conq era. Despite the results that guild still struggled to break a 3FG curse. Yes it was very strict in terms of classes and preformance and that rules out alot of recruitment, but there was no drive from Order-realm to join and be part of a succesful warband.

Joined VII in the buildup phase and the guild went from pug macroleading to being a competitive force trying to prep for 24v24 city fighting by practising and fighting other warband guilds in offzones and slowly but steadily bult a full warband roster. Internal turmoil and people loseing interest created a crack in the guild and all the year long efforts went down the drain as the guild hit the 3fullgroup curse again, mainly as a result of lack of interest from the rest of the realm to join and be competitive/not skilled enough.

So Thundercats now. More lax on the recruitment and an approach of letting newcomers in and help building them up. but just as much as people come in, people leave again and hello for the 3rd time 3fullgroupcurse. Not only is the quality more questionable, the pool of people to recruit from is now way bigger, however the interest still the same. 3fullgroup curse or accept clickers, keyboardturners and clueless peon'eers and help them catch up to years of warband experience.

So where amn I going with this?
Ive seen CNTK around lately, a guild that used to be a powerhouse for warbandplay, I see Beavers and VII around asking for fill to their warband events, New guilds have come and tried their luck, heck even some destro guilds like Lutz and Gitbane have come to Order, but went back home to destro.

Ive had experiences where a single 6man + pugs in cities could give some of these warband guilds a run for their money, on the warbandguilds homesoil (credit to them ofc!) ive experienced picking up fillers from alliance and lfg where the absolute minimum requirement of possitioning as asked for and assisting is just not met, and it has lead me to rather want to pug than join as a premade to lower my own and my enemies expectation when I face them in city, simply because forming and getting a GOOD Order warband together is beond frustrating. The quality of players are such a coinflip and the drive to improve is just not to be found, people rather want to stick to their old half empty guilds and live in the shadow of themselves than form a new and effective guild, or continue playing underperforming classes and accept the puglife is my general impression from two years of trying to be competitive on Order.

So here I go, ill probably setup yet an other 24v24 practise tonight on our event to face PnP and try help the newcomers improve, just like last week. And I am by nomeans expecting to win, but simply just to practise some movement, assisting and basics.

Good for you for setting up practice for newcomers. Its needed for sure.

One thing that Ive wondered though is are there a lot coming from non MMO's because honestly a lot of it should not be that hard to pick up. Swift assist ( or just freehand assisting by paying attention and using target priority thinking) should be a no brainer for anyone looking to play as well as tanks guarding, squishy ranged not standing in the fcae of enemy melee train etc but it happens constantly.

[Starx]

giving engineer/magus a 25% dmg tactic is just lazy, and no one would ever **** use their class mechanic over this tactic hence why I call it lazy.

not again buff turrets they are already buffed from ror begin fron 25% to 40%+ . magus already can kill anyone on sight ( because of lazy +15 crit in each main trees) imagine turrret 45% + 25%(not loner similar to wl) + 15% crit = shiet its totaly not balanced. if u whant really balance enginer than make grenadier corp magich user.
p.s better make pets get aoe heals

Bruh

[Manatikik]

Im amazed you bothered putting it down like that Dan, but I respect your effort on that post. #Micdrop. However Order still have some advantages no matter how grim we paint the picture, and when those Order advantages are put in competitive hands Order will pull wins and feel hard to face for destro, lets not forget that

Now speaking about being organized on Order realm, ill probably overshare my experiences here:

Started out with Deep and Dry under Sacrx, previously worldfirst largescale titles in several games, the guy's leading can't be questioned! Back 2years ago in the conq era. Despite the results that guild still struggled to break a 3FG curse. Yes it was very strict in terms of classes and preformance and that rules out alot of recruitment, but there was no drive from Order-realm to join and be part of a succesful warband.

Joined VII in the buildup phase and the guild went from pug macroleading to being a competitive force trying to prep for 24v24 city fighting by practising and fighting other warband guilds in offzones and slowly but steadily bult a full warband roster. Internal turmoil and people loseing interest created a crack in the guild and all the year long efforts went down the drain as the guild hit the 3fullgroup curse again, mainly as a result of lack of interest from the rest of the realm to join and be competitive/not skilled enough.

So Thundercats now. More lax on the recruitment and an approach of letting newcomers in and help building them up. but just as much as people come in, people leave again and hello for the 3rd time 3fullgroupcurse. Not only is the quality more questionable, the pool of people to recruit from is now way bigger, however the interest still the same. 3fullgroup curse or accept clickers, keyboardturners and clueless peon'eers and help them catch up to years of warband experience.

So where amn I going with this?
Ive seen CNTK around lately, a guild that used to be a powerhouse for warbandplay, I see Beavers and VII around asking for fill to their warband events, New guilds have come and tried their luck, heck even some destro guilds like Lutz and Gitbane have come to Order, but went back home to destro.

Ive had experiences where a single 6man + pugs in cities could give some of these warband guilds a run for their money, on the warbandguilds homesoil (credit to them ofc!) ive experienced picking up fillers from alliance and lfg where the absolute minimum requirement of possitioning as asked for and assisting is just not met, and it has lead me to rather want to pug than join as a premade to lower my own and my enemies expectation when I face them in city, simply because forming and getting a GOOD Order warband together is beond frustrating. The quality of players are such a coinflip and the drive to improve is just not to be found, people rather want to stick to their old half empty guilds and live in the shadow of themselves than form a new and effective guild, or continue playing underperforming classes and accept the puglife is my general impression from two years of trying to be competitive on Order.

So here I go, ill probably setup yet an other 24v24 practise tonight on our event to face PnP and try help the newcomers improve, just like last week. And I am by nomeans expecting to win, but simply just to practise some movement, assisting and basics.

As a SW main, in a half-dead guild, who /5’s in cities I feel personally attacked right now and I can’t even.

[Greenbeast]

I dont disagree Grunbe. But that respons seem to be catering more towards organized play, where as my last part of my post you are quouting I directed at what is happening in 24pug vs 24pug instances. As that is probably the main reason why the destro city isntance winrate is higher.

There is NO DOUBT that Order as a Realm in geneally speaking is not playing well enough though. Sure Destro might be easier to pug on, and have the advantage in archtype spread. But if the pug mentality (and **** even premades on order) were actually better familiar with assisting, some of those rag-tag rdps sw/engineer pug order instances could actually see some kills atleast instead of 5 napalms in one spot

Recruiting on Order is HARD though, and you will just have to trust me on that if you want The quality of engineers is terrible and they have no idea about reading a battle or focusing on controling a fight with their amazing toolkit, instead theyr have all been reading the Bitterstone guidebook and only know how to drop kegs and hug their turrets. I shouldnt had been able to revolutionize the class after dusting it off after I havnt played in back in DnD days, to show the current order population what engineer can do and everone being amazed about how a single engineer can win a fort push, let alone bring control and utility to orvr for orderwarbands. But none of the 1000 engineers on the server seem to know how to use the class, at all.

So have fun recruiting on Order, I DARE you to try it

Spoiler:

This is indeed a meme but looking at this do you seriously want the game to be balanced around pugs?

To balance the game more around casual 2-2-2 warbands SW, IB, Engi, Magus, WH/WE need some help to let them have more universal roles of aoe damage dealers and IB just need a little bit more group utility.

In my opinion the game should be balanced around group play. There are many many layers of group play in this game. Some of them are obvious and others are more advanced. Many players be on destro or order aren't using even 50% of these synergies.
Maybe everyone should just ask him or herself why are you going into the city? Why do you join a warband? What is your goal in doing so? Why do you go organized?
Can players move their perspective one step forward and look at them self from a point of view of other 23 players that they are joining?
And then after everyone has answered this question ask your self - who are these mythical PUG mentality player everyone in this topic talking about?
Maybe this questions should be asked when a player being recruited?

And if you believe that the recruitment on the destruction side is any easier I can reassure you that it's not. I think what might make a difference is the approach to the recruitment and the way the organization adapting new members in the existing structures, working with mistakes.
The good players should become good somewhere, they should grew up as a good player or at least become a motivation to become a better player. Where can they become this motivation?
For example PnP started as an event. Random people on discord trying to bomb 1-2 times in a week.

So maybe order side need more PUG leaders, more semi organized events that might help players to become a different perspective and advertise more organized play?
For example I think by the way your wb streams and those talk shows with Claustro and Fixer are brilliant way to promote group play on the server.

[cfabr]

So i have somewhat of a different approach (after having a similar discussion in another thread) and thinking that, that might actually have an impact on players playstyle and bring a larger variety of builds aswell as classes ingame. What would happend if we removed ALL armor talisman from game? Simply, no more stacking armor like crazy. Now you would be given the choice. Do i still want to dish out damage, but be super squishy? or go more deffensive? Which would have a significant impact on your damege output? ...
I think it would bring a much better dynamic into the fights. Your backline would suddenly rely on your frontline too keep the enemies at bay, ASWELL as paying attention too your surroundings because WE/WH and SW/SH would suddenly have a role in wb with their physical damage. Your frontline dps would rely on your tanks to actually guard them and still pay attention to everything that hapends behind them because those pesky WE/WH and SW/SH could do some serious damage behind the lines.
There would be no more "Lets only roll this or that class, because its super meta" because it wouldn't work without the other classes. Classes would suddenly go back too having their intended rolls and if your realm doesn't have any tanks/any heals/ any mdps/rdps? Tough luck!. Maybe you should try another class that would benefit your realm.

[courtsdad1]

So i have somewhat of a different approach (after having a similar discussion in another thread) and thinking that, that might actually have an impact on players playstyle and bring a larger variety of builds aswell as classes ingame. What would happend if we removed ALL armor talisman from game? Simply, no more stacking armor like crazy. Now you would be given the choice. Do i still want to dish out damage, but be super squishy? or go more deffensive? Which would have a significant impact on your damege output? ...
I think it would bring a much better dynamic into the fights. Your backline would suddenly rely on your frontline too keep the enemies at bay, ASWELL as paying attention too your surroundings because WE/WH and SW/SH would suddenly have a role in wb with their physical damage. Your frontline dps would rely on your tanks to actually guard them and still pay attention to everything that hapends behind them because those pesky WE/WH and SW/SH could do some serious damage behind the lines.
There would be no more "Lets only roll this or that class, because its super meta" because it wouldn't work without the other classes.

Classes would suddenly go back too having their intended rolls and if your realm doesn't have any tanks/any heals/ any mdps/rdps? Tough luck!. Maybe you should try another class that would benefit your realm.

"Classes would suddenly go back too having their intended rolls and if your realm doesn't have any tanks/any heals/ any mdps/rdps? Tough luck!. Maybe you should try another class that would benefit your realm"

Thats where its at anyway. Also there is no"super Meta". I don't know when people started misusing or not understanding what that and "meme" mean but it's annoying as all hell. I'm guessing its a WOW thing?

"Your frontline dps would rely on your tanks to actually guard them and still pay attention to everything that hapends behind them because those pesky WE/WH and SW/SH could do some serious damage behind the lines."

What game are you playing that this isn't already the case?

And no terrible idea as there are already enough issues. Congratulations on thinking out of the box but no thanks.

[Starx]

So i have somewhat of a different approach (after having a similar discussion in another thread) and thinking that, that might actually have an impact on players playstyle and bring a larger variety of builds aswell as classes ingame. What would happend if we removed ALL armor talisman from game? Simply, no more stacking armor like crazy. Now you would be given the choice. Do i still want to dish out damage, but be super squishy? or go more deffensive? Which would have a significant impact on your damege output? ...
I think it would bring a much better dynamic into the fights. Your backline would suddenly rely on your frontline too keep the enemies at bay, ASWELL as paying attention too your surroundings because WE/WH and SW/SH would suddenly have a role in wb with their physical damage. Your frontline dps would rely on your tanks to actually guard them and still pay attention to everything that hapends behind them because those pesky WE/WH and SW/SH could do some serious damage behind the lines.
There would be no more "Lets only roll this or that class, because its super meta" because it wouldn't work without the other classes. Classes would suddenly go back too having their intended rolls and if your realm doesn't have any tanks/any heals/ any mdps/rdps? Tough luck!. Maybe you should try another class that would benefit your realm.

The only way to increase class/build diversity and playstyle is to change how city is fundamentally played. As long as city is just SMASH YOUR 24 MAN INTO MINE then all that will matter is how well your class can brawl in 24v24. Make no mistake this will undoubtedly lead to homogenization of classes, or the alienation we see now.

If city was something more than a 24v24 man brawl in all the stages, and required *gasp* people splitting off and doing things as smaller groups, or even solo then we could possibly get away from all this. People wouldn't be up in arms about WE/WH right now because they would actually have a role to play in a single target spec off doing something solo or in a 6 man group maybe holding a point. Classes like magus/engineer might be able to hugely take advantage of their increased range in certain places. I can't just think of everything here on the spot but im sure that there is plenty that could eventually be done to if you wanted to make city not a zerg fest.

But until then ya, people are going to bitch that engineer sucks 24v24, DPS AM sucks 24v24, why doesnt WH have good aoe no one wants me in city??? HElllo blizzard why does no one invite my magus to warbands? Etc...

[normanis]

giving engineer/magus a 25% dmg tactic is just lazy, and no one would ever **** use their class mechanic over this tactic hence why I call it lazy.

not again buff turrets they are already buffed from ror begin fron 25% to 40%+ . magus already can kill anyone on sight ( because of lazy +15 crit in each main trees) imagine turrret 45% + 25%(not loner similar to wl) + 15% crit = shiet its totaly not balanced. if u whant really balance enginer than make grenadier corp magich user.
p.s better make pets get aoe heals

Bruh