SC almost dead

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anarchypark
Posts: 1327

Re: SC almost dead

Post#131 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:00 pm

DokB wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:47 pm
Still waiting on the justification as to why 2h tanks are considered DPS.

you can categorize 2h tanks in 3 types.
full dps, half tank half dps, full defensive.
majority are first 2. latter are rare.

guard, cc are just excuses to cosplay as tank.
real tanks do it far better.
next time bring challenge for 'i'm tank' argument.

except full defensive 2h tanks, they are slightly better than dps at tanking job .
far behind than real tanks.

if they're so confidence at 2h tanking, get a grp and que?
unless solo dps in pug.
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dansari
Posts: 2479

Re: SC almost dead

Post#132 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:05 pm

The problem is ultimately the points per capture is way too low, and when paired with huge imbalance where one realm is getting spawncamped leads to drawn out scenarios. I was in a trio the other day paired with a premade on our side in khaine's embrace. My trio was practically only flipping our own flag, which means the rest of the scenario was fighting 9v12 and still pushed destro into their warcamp. I **** you not we had to flip this flag 5-6 times. That means we were doing nothing for a solid 4-5 minutes. 4-5 minutes the enemy had to endure not killing anything. 4-5 minutes my group had to endure boredom. Just increase the objective points by like 3-4x, especially if domination kicks in.
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Ashoris
Posts: 141

Re: SC almost dead

Post#133 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:18 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:27 am
Regarding 2h tanks, I've already addressed the matchmaking mechanic in another thread. They fill significantly different roles than a def tank. I feel it's a bit disingenuous to state otherwise, but maybe that's just my clearly uneducated mind or personal bias or ignorance or some other creative way to call me an idiot.
Hi,

i do not want to call you out on anything, but i really like to discuss that with you - especially in a SC enviroment, because i do not understand why my +10crit, 10sec Punt (2h only), 50% dmg reduction, 900+ toughness tank is filling any support role worse than my 5%crit, 20 sec Punt, no dmg reduction, and only 600 toughness snb tank. Not to mention the types of SC where a faster punt can change the whole outcome of the sc ....

I even played SnB as i was able to have the 10% crit and the 10sec punt on SnB (looks way cooler and the dmg is not really a difference).

Putting such 2h tanks in the dps category diminishes the chances of winning for that team drastically, because its just not enough dmg to fill that role.
The second SC at the same time is missing out on a potential really good supporting tank.

to make clear, i play my tank mostly in group so it does not affect me as a tank player, but i also play DPS and Healer a lot as a typical "solo queuer".
Out of a Solo perspective i would prefer to have 2h tank counting as a tank.
Healer perspective:
most 2h tanks are fine, you can focusheal the dps and the grpheals will let the 2h tank survive. We also have enough dps in grp to actually kill something

dps perspective: Nice he is guarding me and can punt, so i can kill enemies faster than they kill me with the 2nd dps archetype in my grp.

as a lone dps Archetype in grp with 2SnB and a 2h tank i find me in a very bad spot, i will get focussed from everyone - while not really able to kill anything that has a bit of heal or guard ....

TL;DR: i would really like to understand your point of view here because its contrary to mine and even by playing all archetypes in the exact same enviroment and trying to see it, i fail :(
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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: SC almost dead

Post#134 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:19 pm

dansari wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:05 pm
Just increase the objective points by like 3-4x, especially if domination kicks in.
This.
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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: SC almost dead

Post#135 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:58 pm

anarchypark wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:00 pm
guard, cc are just excuses to cosplay as tank.
This is just gold. I would love people to tell my 2h BG that I am 'cosplaying' as a 'real tank' when I am using my CC, snaring all enemies around me, Guarding my teammates and swapping it around when necessary, punting, using Challenge to alleviate incoming damage to my teammates, using Taunt to interrupt important spells, using Champion's Challenge on key targets - all the while providing my Malice debuffs & goodies.

The notion that a tank is no longer a tank, simply because he equipped a 2h, is completely and utterly wrong: Swordmaster, for example, has always been envisioned as a 2h tank since the game's conception, had WODS given to him to help him pursue this role; I mean, the proof is in the pudding. How about we do away with this notion? Would do us a lot of good.
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Rida
Posts: 98
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Re: SC almost dead

Post#136 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:30 pm

anarchypark wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:00 pm
you can categorize 2h tanks in 3 types.
full dps, half tank half dps, full defensive.
majority are first 2. latter are rare.

guard, cc are just excuses to cosplay as tank.
real tanks do it far better.
next time bring challenge for 'i'm tank' argument.

except full defensive 2h tanks, they are slightly better than dps at tanking job .
far behind than real tanks.
And I think this is exactly the reason why scs are dying/dead :D
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wargrimnir
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Re: SC almost dead

Post#137 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:45 pm

Lurehtan wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:33 pm
wargrimnir wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:27 am

Regarding 2h tanks, I've already addressed the matchmaking mechanic in another thread. They fill significantly different roles than a def tank. I feel it's a bit disingenuous to state otherwise, but maybe that's just my clearly uneducated mind or personal bias or ignorance or some other creative way to call me an idiot.
You can be wrong without being an idiot. 2h tanks fulfill the exact same role as snb tanks, just optimized for a different environment. Think of it as the difference between Monstro marauder and Sav/brut. One is optimized for warband AoE, the other for small-scale single-target. Both, however, are still dps, despite playing quite differently in practice (more differently, might I add, than any tank spec plays from another). Just because Monstro is tankier doesnt make it a tank: its just a tougher dps that is meant to work in a different environment than the sav/brut spec.

Its the same with 2h tanks. Yes, they do more damage (but, as has been pointed out with literal hard numbers as provided by Ramasee, not really all that much more) but the real appeal is better/more reliable CC alongside a greater potential for ST burst damage. Their main purpose is the exact same as an SnB tank. They guard, challenge, snare, kd/kb, interrupt, assist on dps, etc. Despite being a different spec, they aren't a different role.
you can categorize 2h tanks in 3 types.
full dps, half tank half dps, full defensive.
majority are first 2. latter are rare.

guard, cc are just excuses to cosplay as tank.
real tanks do it far better.
next time bring challenge for 'i'm tank' argument.

except full defensive 2h tanks, they are slightly better than dps at tanking job .
far behind than real tanks.

if they're so confidence at 2h tanking, get a grp and que?
Again, you're wrong. If you were right, then competitive players wouldnt use 2h tanks, because they would die. You can have fun however you want, but dude, your conception of what works and what doesnt is fundamentally off.
Since I'm being forced into this stupid conversation again...

If you want to get a 2h loldps tank in a scenario, group with a friend. Surely you're all grouped up when running scenarios anyway?

Solo classes get categorized. Groups do not, and groups are higher in the queue priority. I assume most players don't want THIS particular kind of 2h tank in their groups classified as a "tank" but with tin armor and a big sword that's definitely compensating for something.

2h tank while retaining many of the abilities and functionality of a shield tank CAN ALSO be played as a Str stacking yolo-dps Focused Offense tank.
Depending on how you spec and your stats will depend on how you're categorized. We mention this every time this whine gets started.

Your collective points are not stupid, they are already accounted for, but the willful ignorance is kind of annoying. Friends don't let friends yolo-dps tank.

Alternatively one might continue to use this argument that 2h tanks are "real tanks" to weaken the resolve of the team in order to get these yolo tanks back into the pug side of the equation instead of proper tanks, further diluting the matchmaking and making it even easier to farm. No one wants to beat on a shield tank if a mostly useless yolo-dps tank is jammed into his slot instead.

Anyway, if you're playing a reasonably tanky tank and happen to be holding a big sword, you're fine. You look cool AF too. But if you go full loldps, you'll be treated as such. Shunned by your peers, your mother will cry, and the Matchmaker is gonna getcha.
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ufthakk
Posts: 35

Re: SC almost dead

Post#138 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:54 pm

does a shielddok count as healer for the machmaking ?

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Sulorie
Posts: 4145

Re: SC almost dead

Post#139 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:32 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:45 pm


Anyway, if you're playing a reasonably tanky tank and happen to be holding a big sword, you're fine. You look cool AF too. But if you go full loldps, you'll be treated as such. Shunned by your peers, your mother will cry, and the Matchmaker is gonna getcha.
Now I am confused. Does the matchmaker differ between str stacking 2h tanks and defensive 2h tanks?
If yes, then this was never stated anywhere before.
Dying is no option.

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toffikx
Posts: 77

Re: SC almost dead

Post#140 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:08 pm

Lurehtan wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:01 pm
Where do you get this idea that there is a conspiracy of "dps" tanks out there trying to masquerade as tanky tanks? In my experience its not happening. The idea that we are advocating for 2h tanks to be counted as tanks so we can farm pugs is ridiculous and insulting.

Strength-stacking focused offense tanks is a red herring. Do we balance the queue around willpower stacking healers with 2k armor and 6k wounds that die in a knockdown, thereby robbing their team of heals despite being (ostensibly) real healers? Or snb tanks that put guard up on a healer, then immediately yolo into the enemy backline, spamming aoe kbs to grant free immunities and then spend the entire game tickling a healer while not CCing, challenging or swapping guard? Or on aoe dps that spam fluff dots to inflate their sc damage while contributing exactly zero to actual kill potential?

I mean come on, we can come up with (actually common, btw) hypotheticals for every archetype that boil down to people playing poorly no matter what class they play, what role they take, and what weapons they use. But I dont see willpower-stacking glass healers, or aoe fluff dps, or idiot deftard tanks, penalized in the queue.

Strangely, its only 2h tanks. Your argument boils down to "group up" (red herring, since your description of how the queue system works changes somewhat with every post); 2h tanks can be played poorly, ergo the assumption is they are always played poorly and cannot be played well (disingenuous, and easily applies to all archetypes, might as well be a justification for scrapping the queue checker altogether if thats the line of logic you pursue); or, and this one baffles me, you posit that we are all part of some conspiracy of making pugs play 2h tanks so we can farm them more. Which is so ridiculous I don't even know where to begin.

So again, I'm not saying youre stupid. Just that in this case you're wrong, and your arguments don't make sense. Everyone is wrong at some point, its fine. The game is alpha. So why not test this change for which we advocate? If youre right and it sucks, revert it (thats happened before). If youre wrong and its great...then thats good! The game is better. So keep it.

Its a win-win situation, and the blatant hostility towards it is frankly perplexing.
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