[Tank Archetype] Guard changes

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Kabuterimonga
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Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#41 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:01 am

I do have a tank, black orc renown 76 that is been on vacation and used again often times, sadly it has been reworked so many times that it's just doesnt feel quite gud to play it like i used to, first SnB THC nerfed only to 2H, now 2H guard nerfed...cmon

Im speakin from a solo, group roam rvr, warband and scenario perspective, i play all aspect of this game.


Scenarios don't matter in this game because there is no progression in it, unless it actually makes an impact in oRvR somehow...
Nerfin tanks just because of an scenario "issue" which is not even an issue, it is how players choose to play the game, now someone just fuucked it up with this change in guard, affectin all tanks, i love playin my 2H black ork on oRvR, lots of players love to play 2H on oRvR.

As a 2H Tank that plays both , scenario and oRvR, i wanna feel useful for when i join a warband as a 2H, i know im a hybrid, tanks dps, it's the way i like to play my black ork. I won't like if a group leader would say, we don't need a 2H tanks because your guard sucks, go respec and comeback when u are wieldin a shield.

If you believe 2H are overperforming in scenario, it may be because a lot of patches ago they have been gettin reworked in order to overperform? maybe not, maybe yes, you know.

What is the use of a Shield in scenario? i mean, if you are a tank usin a shield, it's 100% guaranteed you won't be targeted, so this makes the dps and healers be targeted, but, if you are a 2H it is most likely that you will be focused, because you are threath than can be killed.

Whoever came out with this 25% idea, stop it please, you are breaking down the game instead of improvin it.

holdin da line is useless in small scale, so why are u even trying to make SnB tanks play in scenario, when they are meant to be played on oRvR where HTL is actually useful.

I say, atleast make it 35% or 40%, i still wanna play my 2H Black Ork on oRvR and guard my melee dps.

Here i give you an advice because it looks like you need one. If you are trying to nerf or rework this game, you do it slowly and with small tweaks, first you test it out, then you ask for opinions from comunity, then you may introduce it on live game. Not just bash it in everyones face, you need to realize people come here to enjoy themselves, get out of their real lifes for a while, you just don't do this, you don't screw their gameplay like that. Respect the players!
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Drozen
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Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#42 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:50 pm

1) Do you have a Tank?

-Yes, High rr Chosen & Bg (Had all back on live, but not relivant so will speak more from a Destro perspective)

2) What perspective are you speaking from (6-man, Solo, or WB)?

-Whole spectrum of Organised (Warbandshitters,elitist pricks,min/max..w/e you wanna call ous) wb to 6v6, duo & solo.

3) What are your thoughts (giving specific examples, and ideally with reference to suggested questions)


Reasoning behind said changes
A perceived lack of shield tanks in Scenarios & Small-scale encounters

-Fully understandable since you have more/better tools for the job that needs to be done in that inviroment,With that said there are times a SnB is prefered to smaller enquenters. And you dont need to be as tanky either that a SnB will grant you. And NO, 2h dont equale to DPS.. Wich is a very common veiw. (personally my chosen is running 250str with 2h and beeing fully tank specced)

A perceived lack of usefulness for shield tanks

-I couldnt disagree more, this is just plain wrong. If you actually dont know mechanics of the game or how simple team play works you should not change something without asking how diffrent abilities & roles work. HTL is the main thing of a SnB tank, saying it lack's usefullness is just wrong(not commenting on all the added block wich adds to soak up even more dmg in ORVR wich is a must).

A perceived abundance of two-handed tanks in Scenarios & Small-scale encounters, that some attribute to the fact that they bring specific utility & damage that shield tanks do not

-except for the two reasons that you can be tanky "enough" with a 2h and that HTL is not a must in SC's & smallscale (majority of times) there is other factors involved. All tanks have 3 diffrent tree's to pick from from, all wich have more or less usefullness for the task at hand, and most of the abilities/tactics you pick will favor a 2h for Sc's/ss inviroment and what is needed from them to do there job well, some are even bound to the use of a 2h. And pointing out that SnB tanks dont do dmg is kinda hipocritical thing i must say (thinking of the change/nerf to SnB BO's THC) and also a 1x 2h will hit harder then 1x 1h ever will so simple game mechanics. Maybe consider tooltip dmg change instead towards intended goal?


Questions for you to bear in mind while giving your feedback
Do you agree with the direction that the team has taken in regards to Guard? Explain your reasoning.

-No, Core mechanics/archtypes should be left alone. I play this game cuz i liked the foundation of it, tweak stuff and so on is fine. but actually do radical stuff like the guard change is not a step in the right direction.

Do you believe that shield tanks have no role in Scenarios & Small-scale encounters? If so, how could we improve this?

-Like stated before there is nothing to be improved as such, the balance and core was good. You did SnB BO's more or less useless your self by making THC 2h req, so a rework of that would bring alot of BO's play SnB again that is a fact.
There is already a trade of going 2h or SnB, good or bad you always win or loose something so simply doing a specc for the intended role and setting will always have a similare look to it if you actually want to maximise your contribution to the wb/group.

Do you believe that a two-handed tank should have access to a 50% Guard? Explain your reasoning.

-Yes, core mechanics of the archtype. There is already "peneltys" going 2h wich is mainly less tanky.

Do you believe that a two-handed tank is more attractive for Scenarios & Small-scale encounters? If so, why?

-Reasons stated above.

Do you believe that two-handed tanks are overperforming? If so, how?

-No, Infact i do believe the balance is fine. I wouldnt mind you even reverted the changes(you made a bunch of months back)of Chosen/Ktbs so you could bring maybe 1 or 2 of those into a wb setting aswell cuz at the state atm there is no place for 2h tanks in WB's at all while SnB can go both WB & Smaller settings.

Also i would like to add that these changes have diffrent impact on diffrent tanks, some are nearly always played 2h (BG/SM) in smallscale and while some (Chosen/Ib) can more freely go between SnB or 2h. So going thrue with these changes also pushes some more in or out of the game/meta...Call it what you want.

...Doing changes that has such a big impact i expect a actuall discussion should take place with the ppl you have to your disposal, Talk & theory craft on the intendeed changes and outcomes of it first. My 2cents, Also thanks for keeping the game alive we all here love to play.

/ Tobias
Last edited by Drozen on Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#43 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:16 pm

1) Do you have a Tank?

Yes, RR40+ KotBS & Chosen and a R36 IB - ALL SnB!

2) What perspective are you speaking from (6-man, Solo, or WB)?

WB

3) What are your thoughts (giving specific examples, and ideally with reference to suggested questions)

I'm really happy with the change. I only play SnB tanks for WB and believe I play the role of a tank as it should be. I've always disliked the idea that a tank can go for DPS but still retain their innate tankyness. A Witch Hunter/Elf can't decide one day to respec for a level durability that comes anywhere near the level of a tank. They are either glass-cannons or glass-cannons that take 5 seconds longer to kill.
I'd be happy with 2H tanks being nerfed further (reduced armour).


p.s. My only concern is FLUFF related. Since SM and BGs were 2H by lore, I wouldn't want them nerfed unfairly.

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Karl
Posts: 151

Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#44 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:46 pm

1) Do you have a Tank?
Yes, got 'em all but been mainly playing my (2h) SM.

2) What perspective are you speaking from (6-man, Solo, or WB)?
All perspectives, but mainly pugging in WB lately.

3) What are your thoughts (giving specific examples, and ideally with reference to suggested questions)
I really don't like the change. I don't play my SM as a dps but as a 2h tank. I really don't get the motive for the change - too few snb tanks in SC? If the main goal is to increase the value of the snb arcetype tank then buff it - don't gimp the 2h tank, pls.


Keep up the (otherwise) great work - and I real appriciate the explanation for the changes even if I don't agree with it.

Kind regards
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Charon
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Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#45 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:32 pm

1) Do you have a Tank?[/i]

Yes, snb/2h sm rr 81, snb ib rr 54, 2h knight rr56, at AoR 2h knight rr 96

2) What perspective are you speaking from (6-man, Solo, or WB)?

solo/pug sc, 6-man, organised and pug wb

3) What are your thoughts (giving specific examples, and ideally with reference to suggested questions)

The main problem of s&b is lack of utility in small scale that was scraped from this setup during ror development. Especially painful is almost non existent offensive s&b option (so called brawler spec) and low utility of main s&b tanks masteries like Stone IB path.

So my propositions: (I will focus on classes that I know)

- General change - give shield slightly morale gain effect

SM
– Allow Ether Dance to be use in s&b spec
– Fix Vaul’s Tempering ability – lower cooldown to 15 sek. Make it s&b only

IB
– Allow – Grudge Born Fury and possibly Cave In to be use in s&b spec
– Move Shield Mastery tc to 8 pt
– Move Oath of Vengeance tc to 12 pt and change it to allow Avenging the Debt hit 3
targers in 15 feet of you + slightly increase dmg – make it s&b only

Knight
- Make 2h and s&b punt equal.
- Add unavoidable parameter to Myrmidias Furry if in s&b
- Change Might Soul tc – by add shortening effect of Blazing Blade and Vicious
Slash dots by 4 sek if use by s&b tank (like bombardment turret for engis dots)
- Let Dirty Tricks tc to affect also Knight

BO
- Again allow use of THC in s&b spec

Those changes are easy to implement, don’t require creation of new skills etc. and quickly will increase effectiveness of aformentioned s&b tanks as a offensive tools in pt
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herooftime
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Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#46 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:43 pm

1) Do you have a Tank?
Yes. I have a RR75 Chosen named Hero

2) What perspective are you speaking from (6-man, Solo, or WB)?
I play all of the above. I'm usually running around in the lakes in a 2-6man group and queuing for scenarios. I have both joined
premade and lead pug warbands. I used to solo more, but I rarely do now that I have many friends in the game.

3) What are your thoughts (giving specific examples, and ideally with reference to suggested questions)
Q) Do you agree with the direction that the team has taken in regards to Guard? Explain your reasoning.
A) I strongly disagree with the changes to guard for a 3 main reasons:
#1 These changes seem very random, unwarranted, and a clear reasoning behind the change did not come until days later.
#2 The reasoning behind the change is flawed. There are lots of ways to play this game and all specializations fill different
roles in the game. Shield tanks have their place in large scale battles, fortresses, scenarios and dungeons, while 2h tanks
work in solo, small groups, and scenarios. Before the change I would often switch back and forth between my 2h and my
shield in one play session depending on the tasks at hand, now I am forced to use shield for every situation because full
guard is impossible to give up. A players specialization choice should never be taken away.
#3 The action taken to fix the perceived lack of shield tanks in the game is flawed. I do not feel that shield tanks were under
performing, but lets say they were. Wouldn't a buff to the shield tactics and abilities be a better way to handle the
situation? Nerfing a spec (epecially a popular one) to the point that players feel forced to play a different spec or reroll to
a new class only results in an angry and unhappy player base. If shield tanks were made into a more enticing
specialization for small scale , the choice between equipment types might be a little tougher and interesting. Some ideas
off the top of my head could be to increase guard range for shield tanks, increase guard to 60% for shield tanks, give
shield tanks the option to guard two targets, or halve the challenge cooldown from 30s to 15s for shield tanks.

Q) Do you believe that shield tanks have no role in Scenarios & Small-scale encounters? If so, how could we improve this?
A) Shield tanks do have a role an important role in scenarios. All scenarios are points based. Having an unkillable shield tank
defending a BO is invaluable for a team. I've won scenarios where my team didn't score a single kill just because we were
taking and holding the objectives correctly.

Q) Do you believe that a two-handed tank should have access to a 50% Guard? Explain your reasoning.
A) YES! 25% is too drastic of a decrease in guard damage. Tanks should always be tanks no matter how the character is
specialized or the type of weapon the tank is equipped with. 2h tanks are not and should not be a dps class. SM and BG
come close but they will never outperform a true dps class in damage output. DPS classes also have access to detaunt and
gap closers that tanks need if they want to compete with a dps class. If the guard change must be implemented, drastic
changes must be implemented to make a 2h tank more in line with other dps classes. As the game currently stands, 2h tanks
are in an awkward state where they can't guard enough damage to fill the tank role in a group and can't deal enough burst
damage to fill a dps role.

Q) Do you believe that a two-handed tank is more attractive for Scenarios & Small-scale encounters? If so, why?
A) Yes I feel they are more attractive in small-scale encounters because the team is taking less incoming damage so the tank
doesn't need to use the a shield to protect its team. The justification can be made to sacrifice defense to increase personal
damage

Q) Do you believe that two-handed tanks are overperforming? If so, how?
A) No, I do not believe they are over performing in any way and I have not met a single player who has felt that way. Tanks have their own strengths and weaknesses just like any role in this game.
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Telen
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Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#47 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:33 pm

1) Do you have a Tank?
Yes 40+ SM IB Chosen

2) What perspective are you speaking from (6-man, Solo, or WB)?
Solo 6-man

3) What are your thoughts (giving specific examples, and ideally with reference to suggested questions)

Do you agree with the direction that the team has taken in regards to Guard? Explain your reasoning.

Yes and no. Reduction of guard reduces the effectiveness of guard punishes those guarded not the tank for going dps. Guard though does need to be a valid benefit for a snd over a 2h.

Do you believe that shield tanks have no role in Scenarios & Small-scale encounters? If so, how could we improve this?

They carry much less threat while the 2h can carry out its guard duty just as well.

Do you believe that a two-handed tank should have access to a 50% Guard? Explain your reasoning.

Yes but the damage they take from guarding should be higher forcing them to drop guard or kite off.

Do you believe that a two-handed tank is more attractive for Scenarios & Small-

Yes. They provide much more threat as crossguarded or assist.
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larsulu
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Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#48 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:41 pm

1) yes got chosen / kotb
2) only duo/small scales
3) every tank spec should have guard as 50% value.
There no points about the change you did.
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vanjelis
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Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#49 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:10 am

1.
Yes. I played a 2H BG on retail AoR and am returning to RoR to bring up a new 2H BG (just entered T4 as this change went live).
I've been planning this character to specifically duo with a dps DoK friend, where I build tanky 2H for Crimson Death comboing off the dps DoK crit heal debuff. If this change sticks I won't play the BG, maybe won't play RoR.

2.
Speaking from solo, duo, disorganised scens and ORvR currently.

3.
I disagree with the guard change itself, the reasoning behind it, and overall I see it as being done with bad faith towards 2H tanks. This has not been a constructive change at all and is simply punitive with no justification.

Lots of people have already spoken about why it's a mistake to argue that 2Hander should offer "the same" guard mitigation. I'd also like to point out that they already don't offer the same mitigation. We know the trade-off is in personal survivability as well as HTL. The personal survivability loss going 2H already affects the overall damage mitigation of guard. You reduce the damage your guard target takes, yes, but you also then actually reduce the total incoming damage with your defensive stats. It's not just a case of 50/50 split, it's 50% damage that you can then negate through your parry/block. So that massive crit incoming on your guard target doesn't necessarily still do 100% of it's damage split over 2 targets - you further reduce the overall damage done. SnB tanks are simply better at this already.

2H tanks already queue scens as a dps. What is this about?! There needs to be a more specific way to determine if the person is performing the role of a tank or of a dps. It's been beaten to death already - but 2H tank =/= dps, even with FO slotted. DPS vs tank classes are completely different toolkits.

I actually love the suggestions people are making about FO being the source of the guard nerf. But this needs to be a significant enough trade-off. I'd personally love to see Focused Offense buffed to 20-25% increased damage, with the trade-off being 25% reduced guard effectiveness. Then we can see real build diversity for tanks to perform as beefier psuedo-mdps classes, and justifiably queue as a dps.

As someone returning to the game it's disappointing to hear the counterinuitive changes this dev team have made over the years. Speaking from a BG's perspective, things like the KD in Malice weren't always there. I feel sorry for BO right now. You've made changes throughout the dev cycle that are really out of tune with this bizarre massive guard nerf. It smacks of a lack of proper direction and understanding what outcomes you're trying to achieve. Stop hurting build diversity and start working to promote it instead.
Something kind of sad about the way that things have come to be. Desensitised to everything, what became of subtlety?

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Bacta
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Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#50 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:21 pm

Spoiler:
I don't think the Guard change was necessary, 2h Tanks already take increased damage when using guard on someone compared to a tank with a shield. What was the reasoning behind deciding this change? I feel the staff needs to listen to it's community more if they wish to be successful, or implement some kind of system where players get elected and propose community driven changes and propose them to staff where they can be passed or turned down with reasoning of course. Remember community members of these kind of projects should be #1 priority. I feel large changes to classes should be made aware to the community before they are implemented so they can be discussed.
Please amend your post by using the format that is required in the OP:

1) Do you have a Tank?
2) What perspective are you speaking from (6-man, Solo, or WB)?
3) What are your thoughts (giving specific examples, and ideally with reference to suggested questions)

Once you have amended the format of your post, you may feel free to remove my edit and spoiler from your post.
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