[Tank Archetype] Guard changes

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rmpl
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Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#21 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:19 pm

1) Do you have a Tank?
RR82 BO, RR60 KOTBS but I'm very familiar with the other tanks back from my live days.
2) What perspective are you speaking from (6-man, Solo, or WB)?
Mostly 6-man and solo roaming, although occasionally I do participate in semi-organised warbands (complete pug overflow wb is a no no for me)
3) What are your thoughts (giving specific examples, and ideally with reference to suggested questions)
I'm gonna speak solely from a BO perspective:

Less than happy about the change, especially coming from a BO perspective. 25% guard simply doesn't cut it against half-decent players so you pretty much need to use a shield which leaves BO without his three hit combo, which is, in my opinion, the defining ability of that class. Majority of the damage comes from that ability and due to the proximity of attacks it is great triggering initiative debuff war bellow which is, arguably, one of the most powerful thing BO has to offer to his party but since Three Hit Combo requires 2h BO has lost a huge chunk of their power.

It wasn't always like that though, THC (three hit combo) used to have no requirement and BOs with shield were more than viable - they were dominating the scene. Majority of BOs ran snb because you needed that extra survivability which BOs lacked, SMs had their WODS but BOs had nothing and since THC was usable with snb, most BOs agreed that going snb is the best choice. Even then, 2h BOs were popular in pug scenarios in such because you always had some extra damage but snb BO was the king.

Here's are some old videos of snb BO in a competitive environment (there are dozens and dozens of those, I can provide links if necessary):

Click here to watch on YouTube

Click here to watch on YouTube

This was all fine and dandy until one day someone decided that Three Hit Combo should be a 2h only ability. Most BOs were pretty upset about the change because it almost completely killed a viable snb spec, what's more, it left a BO in a very bad state because the class pretty much HAD to use 2h, just like Swordmasters. The thing about SMs though, they had a defensive ability which allowed this playstyle: Wall of Darting Steel but BOs had nothing like that. This is why You Wot! was created to give 2h BOs some survivability and make them viable in small-scale and 6v6.

As you can see, the dominance of 2h BO in smallscale flourished because of aforementioned THC change. You might go and ask "is the damage really that important for a BO?" and the answer is yes. Most small-scale fights and 6v6 are won by punting tanks and BO has a very short aoe punt which is very inefficient for that purpose, it's used very VERY rarely but BO makes up their inability to punt in the damage and initiative steal, both of which were gravely affected by the 25% guard nerf.

I think the -25% guard was a mistake but I know you had good intentions. Instead of doing that we should look at each class individually, talk to the veterans of those classes and simply ask how we can fix this issue by changing the abilities instead of the core mechanic of the entire archetype. It's not like we don't want to use shields ever, period - the more builds the better, some people ran snb BO for years before the THC change! I can't talk for other classes, but when it comes to BO the solution is simple - if you want more snb BOs in scenarios, 6v6s and smallscale then the removal of the 2h requirement from THC should be the first step in that direction, with more to follow if necessary. It might sound weird that this one thing can make such a big difference but it really does.

I wish I could say more about other classes but I simply don't feel confident enough to weigh in, though I'm sure you will find experienced players willing to figure out how to fix those classes without such drastic changes to the guard itself. There is a way to do it, believe me.
Last edited by rmpl on Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#22 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:34 pm

1) Do you have a Tank?
yes, all 2H = 80 IB, 60 knight, 40 BG

2) What perspective are you speaking from (6-man, Solo, or WB)?
Anything from solo to 6 man.

3) What are your thoughts (giving specific examples, and ideally with reference to suggested questions)
Change to guard is wrong for multiple reasons. First, it is mathematically wrong. Second, it was done for the wrong reasons. Third, it is wrong because of design choices that were made.

A) Mathematically the change seems wrong to me. How I see the game in small encounters : healers and dps have very similar outputs. Hence an unguarded target (that has never really 0 mitigation) is very hard to kill for 2 dps if focused healed by 2 healers. So dps need to have heal debuff to counter the healing. Then you bring a tank guard to override that heal debuff. Which begins in the need for counterplay. This can be switching to an unguarded target fast enough, punting the guard, CCing the healers (with stagger or silence) or Coordinating morale.

If you dumb the guard down to 25%, then no counter play is needed. With 2 dps focus and a heal debuff, the target will go down mathematically anyway. So basically, there is no more counterplay needed versus 2H tanks. You can just train any target down without bothering to CC anyone or have any strategy. Everything literally become like Pug farming.

B) The change was done for wrong reasons. As stated by others, if SnB tanks are not prevalent in small fights, its because they were either nerfed into oblivion, or were never any good to begin with. IB for example, is sooooo bad in SnB spec. Past 5 points in middle mastery everything is useless (moarrrr defense... which you don't need since you are already the last one standing in any fight anyway). Then you cannot spend point in Vengeance (everything is 2H restricted past 5 points ability). So basically, you end up with the same tools as a 2H IB (crit buff, parry buff, magic bubble, PK), but with an unreliable KD-on block, **** damage and a worse armor debuff (300-400 points less good). Of course no one serious wants to play that. It has nothing to do with 2H IB overperforming (it is litteraly the worst tank on order...). The SnB spec is just even more bad. Same goes for most tank honestly.

C) Which brings me to design choices. For a lot of tanks, the SnB spec are horrible. By foregoing 2H you basically lock yourself out of your best CC, your stronger debuff, and your best attacks. For NOTHING but block chance (or tactic tied to block) and htl which are 2 thing that require 0 skill to use. There is 0 ability in IB or knight defensive mastery that require any skill at all to use. You don't need to time anything, you don't need to pick the right target, nothing. Its just stuff that happens anyway. So basically by going SnB you purposefully chose to play an easier, dumber version of the same class. Why do that if you don't need to ? In Forts you need too to survive, so you do it. In scenario you don'T. If you wanna see SnB do well, give tools in their mastery that are as good or better than the 2h mastery tools.

TLDR : undo you lazy guard change. And give great tools in SnB mastery that aren't all based on : if you block, you gain stuff that make you block more, or take less damage or whatnot. Tank don'T need more survivability, they all have plenty with a shield on and good gear. Redo the mastery to make them good a supporting their team. Snare, KD, staggers, buffs, debuffs, AP regen, mobility boost, damage boost. For example, for IB instead of giving 11 points- shield mastery and 13 points Oathstone (which is hilariously useless), give them an equivalent to Engi - Coordinated Fire at 11 points and a group immunity to CC at 13 points. And you'll see, 6 man will want them and good IB will want to play that. And suddently, 2H wont look that shiny anymore in comparison.
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Toldavf
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Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#23 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:46 pm

I have several tanks, I've played IB, chosen and knight to a decent standard and dabbled in the others.

I've played with and competed with some of the best players on this server and live in 6 man play.

About half the specs available to a 6vs6 tank ceased to be viable because 25% damage reduction just doesn't get the job done.

Realistically allot of the best tools are closed off to you because you need a shield. If even one of your tanks is 2hander he can be ignored and more cc can be alocated to the shield tank, sure it will be easier to avoid but when it sticks it will matter. A shield tank will also be massively overworked in this situation having to constantly swap between the other 5 players with nobody to cover him.
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Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#24 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:58 pm

1) Do you have a Tank?

BG and SM, also focused some time on IB and Kotbs. On live I played Chosen and Kotbs.

2) What perspective are you speaking from (6-man, Solo, or WB)?
Semi-hardcore soloer: 80% of time is pugging/soloing/duo. Rest is 6man.

3) What are your thoughts (giving specific examples, and ideally with reference to suggested questions)

Do you agree with the direction that the team has taken in regards to Guard? Explain your reasoning.
No, I don't agree with this change. I see it as an unneeded and drastic nerf of 2h tanks which were taken on the spot of a tank not a dps or even a bruiser. 2h builds relied on their utility and most of tanks had to pick 2h simply to access specific skills. And that change just destroyed their main tank tool basically left 2h tanks being useless since they are not tanks anymore but not a dps at the same time.

Do you believe that shield tanks have no role in Scenarios & Small-scale encounters? If so, how could we improve this?
I do believe that SnB tanks have no role in Scenarios & Small-scale because most of their utility tools were nerfed before so they don't have nor support damage to assist their dps carry nor useful utility to help a group. Being a tough trash can never help your team when enemies can simply avoid/ignore you.

Do you believe that a two-handed tank should have access to a 50% Guard? Explain your reasoning.
Two-handed tank must have an access to Guard because this is one of their main tools. They are taken on the spot of a tank so they must be able to do tank's job: protect your allies.

Do you believe that a two-handed tank is more attractive for Scenarios & Small-scale encounters? If so, why?
I do believe that a two-handed tank is more attractive for Scenarios & Small-scale because their utility shines in that scale. No one really cares about your guard swaps, punts and other CC of enemies in mass RvR that sometimes looks like a Zergfest. Since 2h tanks focus on an active utility which control the battle, it makes them needed in Scenarios and small encounters where your personal part do matter and you are the one who is able to change the tide of the battle.

Do you believe that two-handed tanks are overperforming? If so, how?
How could they overperform something when all they did was an active utility which no one else could provide. SnB tanks are not able to do it because they have another niche: RVR HTL holding and damage absorption. 2h tanks are for an active utility and SnB ones are for a passive utility, there are different goals so logically there are different builds to achieve these goals.

If Dev team really want to shake things up, they should understand that 2h tank is a TANK first of all so taking away their main tank tool is not the way. The main goal should be a better diversity but annihilation of the whole play style definitely doesn't help it. If there is a need of something new then:
1) Focused Offense tactic should be reworked to suit the play style which was mistaken for 2h tank: dps tank (2h tank =/= dps tank). So if dps tanks should get some changes then they can get them through this tactic: it should provide them damage but take away/reduce tanking tools such as guard and challenge. This kind of change will bring a diversity for sure without destruction of one of the play styles that works perfectly and fine as it is. Some tanks have much better mechanics than most of dps classes, so if I had a chance to play them as dps class even without some of the special tools which any pure dps class has, I'd take it.
2) SnB tanks could be given back their active utility tools such as punts with lower cooldown and some of offensive skills. Other tweaks also would be appreciated: better challenge, other useful for a group skills which could be tied to SnB. Such skills as Can't Hit Me and None Shall Pass are perfect examples of how SnB skills should NOT look like. These skills serve zero purpose for a group, so if something should be broken then it'd better be them so they could be reworked into something useful for a group which only SnB tank would bring. SnB tank as a play style needs something unique to be welcomed in small scale. Being a punching bag is not useful when there is no need in building a shield wall or HTL holding which are the purposes why SnB tanks are better by a mile in RvR than 2h tanks.

As a player I play 2h tank not because it's strong or overperfoming or something like this: I play it because I can feel my impact. I know that I can change the tide of the battle with my active utility - that's why I play 2h tank. SnB tanks can't take such part since most of their tools are focused either on passive utility or basic survivability which also make them so boring to play and be called as "bots". I don't want to be a last survivor watching my teammates dying and enemies ignoring me since my damage is fluff and my active utility is none existent, I prefer to not let die my teammates at all and the play style of a 2 tank do help me to achieve this goal through guard swaps, good punts, cc and proper assist. That's what makes 2h tanks more popular in the environment where an individual skill does matter.
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Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#25 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:01 pm

Do you have a tank?

Have played all tanks till 40/60+ except BO

What perspective are you speaking from (6-man, Solo, or WB)?

Solo, small scale & WB

Do you agree with the direction that the team has taken in regards to Guard? Explain your reasoning.

No. I am not convinced about the reason behind it. Devs say 2h tanks dominate small scale and scs so they reduce their guard effectiveness.
Someone else could just as easily say snb tanks dominate orvr lets nerf snb guard effectiveness…
Seems to me more like a lets nerf small scale groups

Do you believe that shield tanks have no role in Scenarios & Small-scale encounters? If so, how could we improve this?

Snb tanks have the same role in small scale that 2h tanks have in WBs. I mean they have a place but their spec is not optimal
If we want to improve snb in small scale it should be by buffing their utility

Do you believe that a two-handed tank should have access to a 50% Guard? Explain your reasoning.

Yes. 2h gives roughly 10% more damage while you loose ~7% of your defense plus HTL, seems to me like a fine trade off. Cant understand why they should also loose their core mechanic

Do you believe that a two-handed tank is more attractive for Scenarios & Small-scale encounters? If so, why?

Yes mostly for the shorter cd in punt. In general, I do not think that 2h tanks necessarily means more dps than a tank in snb. There are offensive snb tanks as well as defensive 2h tanks

Do you believe that two-handed tanks are overperforming? If so, how?

Nope. Sure BO/SM can even outdamage dps archetypes if speced full offensive. Same is unlikely with bg/ib/chosen and impossible with a kotbs (except if we are talking about meaningless fluff aoe dmg)
But going full offensive with a tank doesn’t make them proper dps and comes with a cost. Tanks are liable to being perma snared and lack tools like heal debuff or charge that help dps to bring down targets in a competitive environment. In addition, a full offensive tank can be bursted down quickly as tanks lack detaunt
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Nefarian78
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Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#26 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:08 pm

I have a rr70+ BO, mained one since Warhammer Online (Both AoR and RoR) existed. I'd say i've spent at least 80% of my time here in a scenario, most of the time in a 6man group.

I can definetly say that this change is by far among the worst changes i've seen on RoR. There's no silver lining or positive outcome that can come out of it.

"[Reasoning behind said changes]
A perceived lack of shield tanks in Scenarios & Small-scale encounters
A perceived lack of usefulness for shield tanks
A perceived abundance of two-handed tanks in Scenarios & Small-scale encounters, that some attribute to the fact that they bring specific utility & damage that shield tanks do not"

I don't want to sound offensive, but the reasoning behind that change clearly shows lack of vision, understanding the consequences of balance changes and most of all, a complete lack of experience in 6man groups. Also, these changes were probably based on the 6v6 tournaments in which 4/5 teams participated. Balancing around 30-35 players is not a good idea.

Much of the utility of a SnB tank has been nerfed and nerfed and nerfed again in the years. Big Brawlin', Crippling Strikes, BO/CH Morale pumps, Force of Fury... the list goes on. I might be wrong but iirc all of those nerfs happened because of 24v24 balance without anyone caring or understanding that those changes also affected 6v6 balance.

Do you agree with the direction that the team has taken in regards to Guard? Explain your reasoning. As i've explained above, i obviously hate this change and would like to see it reverted asap.

Do you believe that shield tanks have no role in Scenarios & Small-scale encounters? If so, how could we improve this? I do not believe they have no role, it's just that over the years the balance changes shifted the meta over to 2h tanks. I can't say with certainty what should be done to improve the situation, since i don't have the full pictures and most change will also have an impact in RvR. I can definetly say that gutting X to make Y look better is a terrible idea, doesn't matter what is the subject.

Do you believe that a two-handed tank should have access to a 50% Guard? Explain your reasoning. Obviously. A 2h tank without guard at full strenght is just a severely weaker Mdps.

Do you believe that a two-handed tank is more attractive for Scenarios & Small-scale encounters? If so, why? Yes, i've explained why i think that is already.

Do you believe that two-handed tanks are overperforming? No, I just believe that SnB tanks are underperforming. No, they were finally in a good spot after years of being a bad meme.

detharin
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Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#27 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:20 pm

1) Do you have a Tank?
I play a currently 69 SnB black orc tank on RoR and had a 90+ SnB Black Orc tank on live.

2) What perspective are you speaking from (6-man, Solo, or WB)?
Warband as SnB tanks have very little use in 6-mans, Solo, and small scale PvP. Therefore I avoid those activities since they are not fun as a pure defense sword and board tank.

3) What are your thoughts (giving specific examples, and ideally with reference to suggested questions)
Attempting to force people to play a generally unfun, subpar role by making other more fun ways to play non viable does not address the core issue. Very few people enjoy playing a pure defensive tank. I just happen to be one of them. However due to either balance changes or nerfs from live it is very frustrating as offensive classes have outpaced defensive abilities to the point where gearing for pure survivability does not produce sufficient results to warrant the sacrifice. It takes 45 points in futile strikes to remove 45 points in opportunist as well as the base chance to be crit. It takes 1 pierce defense hit to negate 60 points of defense renown.

Damage vs Survivability- Survivability tools are outpaced by damage tools to an excessive degree that makes SnB tanking unrewarding if not actively punished. Currently a black orc tank spending 20 points in Block, 20 points in parry, and 20 points in dodge/disrupt can be completely negated by an engineer with pierce defenses. 60 points in renown becomes -5 block, 1% parry, 1% Dodge and Disrupt due to an engineer choosing to run one tactic. For MDPS on order side WL use a 2 hander which i believe grants the -10% defenses of all two handers. WH have feigned positioning. Slayers have rampage negating block and parry. Since we have to use renown points to even begin to get our defensive abilities above the debuffs before they matter tanks are perpetually at a massive renown deficit compared to DPS. Additionally a single knockdown removes all our defenses and allows us to be quickly carved apart since so much of our survivability is tied to them as opposed to toughness, armor, and resistances.

On live my blorc could gear to be generally very difficult to kill even without heals against one or two DPS. I once tanked the two best MDPS witch hunters on Iron Rock while at RR 80 with all parties in BIS gear to a standstill because while I could not kill either of them, they could not kill me. My dps was non existent, but if you needed someone to stand somewhere and not die I had a role. In Scenarios i could be counted on the stand on a flag and call incoming and survive against small numbers until help could arrive. Three or more players would generally wear me down, or cc me and cap. However I, and tanks like me added that speed bump that turned Capture and Control scenarios away from run around in circles, to more stand up fights. In small scale RvR i could guard a target and survive both the damage from players and guard deep in the backlines without needing focus heals. This allowed a healer to prioritize other targets.

in RoR a single, lesser geared MDPS has a very good chance of wearing me down. Tanking two MDPS is impossible. I will just die quickly. Last night I spent about a two minutes fighting a White Lion at a flag solo. He chose to stay and fight rather than disengage and I eventually killed him, but not before he took me to under 20% health including a 3600 HoT pot used. Had a second DPS of any type joined I would have been dead in under about 20s. The white lion dropped a conq medallion indicating his renown was between 40-50. I was in 5 piece Vanq, using a toughness and armor pot, fresh from tanking a fort. A better geared White Lion would likely have killed me, or could have disengaged at any time to leave the fight. Effectively the only reason i "won" the fight was due to the other playing being much lower renown, lower gear, and I still almost lost. Their tools to kill me have massively outpaced my ability to not die.

Abilities That Define a Tank- Hold the Line, Guard, Challenge, Taunt, CC, and why tanks need to be more than a wounds battery for one other player.

Guard- Guard has always been one of the greatest abilities in any MMO, but it has some limitations. The target must be within 30 yards, and the tank suffers half the damage. While we can negate that with block and parry, as above one pierce defenses and 40 points in renown spent to help negate guard damage disappears. As a tank we will guard two types of players. Backline players and frontline pushers.

Backline players are healers and RPDS that need to stay alive and are likely to experience significant pressure. The 30 yard requirement places the tank away from the front lines and skirmishing in the back to protect these players. This means there is no pressure on the enemy back lines so healers are able to freecast. If we can keep pressure off our healers it is unlikely anyone is going to die an MDPS and a tank are of minimal threat to a group with 2 healers, and a MPDS and tank are likely to struggle to even kill one solo in my experience.

Frontline Players are MDPS that need a way to survive to make it to the backline and pressure healers. The problem here is that while functioning as a wounds battery and DPS delivery system we lack the tools to be very effective doing so once we arrive beyond being a wounds battery. Once we arrive in the backline we are unlikely to be able to disrupt a healer or kill anyone. Healers take 2+ mdps to kill, and a defense tank lacks the power to meaningfully contribute. Between detaunts, CCs, and self heals the amount of damage a SnB tank will contribute is fairly small compared to what an actual DPS class can dish out. My hits for 100-150 as well as skull thumper cannot compare to a DPS that is going to be routinely hitting for 500-1000+. I do less damage than a dot.

A 2 handed tank avoids this problem because as a wounds battery we still have high wounds and as block/parry are very commonly debuffed to the point guard damage/enemy attacks are rarely avoided means they do not necessarily require significantly more heals than a SnB tank. Most healers will be dropping heals on the guard target as the tank is more expendable. Most smart players avoid targeting a SnB tank aside from debuffs, and focus the target. Similarly with a 2h tank the target is likely squishier and therefore will be the primary focus. The 2 handed tank on the other hand can produce enough damage in assistance with a MDPS to pressure heals and squishies to the point a burst may kill them.

Either way the tank is only important in keeping the guard target alive. The reduction in guard to the two handed tank means as a wounds battery they are less effective even while they will live longer due to less incoming guard damage. Their job is not to live longer, it is to keep the guard target alive as absent both of them beating on the target they are unlikely to produce meaningful results.

This creates the problem that the tanks who need to be in the back line beating on healers cannot keep their guard target alive, and the tanks that can do not have the tools to significantly pressure the healers and RDPS. Therefore both 2h and SnB tanks are unhappy as both roles are subpar for the only job they really have.

Challenge and Hold the line- The other two buttons tanks have to hit. Challenge is a 30 second cooldown, and Hold the line is a channel. This means as a SnB tank in a warband after we challenge we just need to stand near our guard target, and hold the line for 30 seconds. Reapply as necessary. This is neither fun, nor engaging gameplay. For a two handed tank challenge is not a deterrent for the opposite side since they 2 handed tanks fall fairly quickly when focused due to focusing on renown abilities that improve damage.

Hold the line does buff everyone behind the tank and is very powerful. However it only works against Dodge and disrupt and is more focused on buffing our group than protecting ourselves. Due to the ease of negating our defenses as a blorc I am forced to cycle Cant Hit Me to get a net positive block and stay alive due to the defensive debuffs and survivabilty stat value turning a 45% d/d into a 30% or less. In small scale RvR and Scens it has less value except during initial charges. Keep the group behind you in the chaos as well as within range is problematic. Plus with the plan mechanic you have to drop HTL for 3 globals in order to use a best plan attack. Both our knockdown, and silence CC as CC immunity ability in the Toughest tree require Best plan. That means it can be used about 6 seconds after we decide to use it if we are in no plan due to HTL spamming. This leads to HTL being a powerful ability in keep sieges and holding doors which is about 1% of the actual game. It is also not fun, leading to 2h players feeling that not having a shield is a net positive since they can instead engage in activities that are more fun since they cannot sit there hitting on button.

Taunt- Honorable mention, remember when taunt forced pets to attack you for the duration. Peeling a white lion pet off a healer with a well timed taunt was always fun.

CC abilities or how I learned to love the immune message.- To my knowledge there are 2 main immune timers. For the blackorc perspective it is knockbacks and Silence/Knockdown.

Knockback-Black orcs knockback is on a short timer, AOE, and knocks back a short duration. A knocked back target will likely still be a guard range due to its short distance. Also I have just given 30s of knockback immunity to everyone in a general area. Only really useful in very limited circumstances and while it can buy a healer a second or two, the short distance means most targets will resume beating on the healer very quickly. Other tank classes have been knockbacks, which are single target, and produce greater distance. I prefer to let them do the punting, but IIRC most of these better knockbacks require a 2 hander and not having a blorc around passing out 30 second immunites every 10s. This gives 2h tanks more group utility than SnB tanks. A healer superpunted into the enemy back lines can be more easily mobbed and killed. SnB punts are shorter distance and quickly negated with a but of running. The greater hangtime of long distance punts can serve as a second viable form of CC. Not counting the 2, or 3 seconds in the air followed by needing to reposition. The black orc punt hang time seems less than a global cooldown.

Knockdown and Silence-I have one of each. Both can be used with SnB or 2 hander. Both give the same immunity. Both can be blocked, or parried. Both are the highest damage abilities available to SnB with the removal of tree hit combo. Which means avoiding using our highest damage abilities unless the target is immune, or it is an opportune moment. If I want to pressure a healer i need to wait until his health is low so that my group and CC and burst him down. However i cannot use my highest damage abilities without giving the immunity that will prevent us from killing him. Which means it is harder to get them into the danger zone since lower damage abilities have to be used to support our MDPS. Further moving people toward 2 handed tanking as tree hit combo allows for damage pressure, without granting CC immunities. This is fun, hitting a target for <100 while avoiding damaging abilities is not fun.

Suggestions Defense needs to be defense. Offense needs to be offense, and both roles need to be viable in all situations. Two handed tanks are not complaining about the guard changes because of the guard changes, they are complaining because they are losing a role they enjoying playing and being left with a role very few people actually want to play.

Give SnB DPS back the tools we need to survive in the back lines and assist MDPS in killing healers. We have the 50% guard to protect the MDPs but not the tools to do much else other than be a wounds battery. Our damage is anemic. We still need significant heals instead of being self sufficient enough to push deep in enemy lines. Either give us the ability as SnB tanks to gear and spec to either do enough damage to be meaningful for the very reason people currently play 2 handed tanks or give us the ability to gear for enough defenses to be really annoying in small scale combat so we can hold flags under focus of push the backlines and survive.

2h tanks- At this point 2 handed tanks do the lowest damage of all classes. DPS spec healers outdamage us. However some damage is better than little damage in about 90% of the game leading to tanks gravitating toward this spec as since you cant outlive a target, you have to kill them before they kill you. Removing tools from them does not make SnB fun and will just cause people to quit rather than play an unfun role. If the guard nerf is going to stay then increase the damage 2 handed tanks can do, with appropriate gear and spec, to compete with healer dps so people who want to go glass cannon as tank can contribute to warbands, 6v6 and scens or give them superior tools to be viable in their own right so while they cannot guard as well they do bring something valuable to the table.

Guard range- Guard range at 30 yards is fairly short. Instead of nerfing the amount of guard for 2 handers, could you increase the range of guard? A 60 yard guard range would allow SnB tanks to be better front line skirmishers while protecting the back lines. A 60 yard guard range on 2 handed tanks could also be an option. Double the range, but half the value would mean that while they are protecting for less they can do so from farther away and through superpunts meaning that it would be much more difficult to separate the two.

zwerrie
Posts: 84

Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#28 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:28 pm

Do you have a tank?

Yes, Ironbreaker 2h/snb.

What perspective are you speaking from (6-man, Solo, or WB)?

Smallscale.

Do you agree with the direction that the team has taken in regards to Guard?

yes, high % of parry resulted into too much dmg reduction, yet still have high AA crit and utility.

Do you believe that shield tanks have no role in Scenarios & Small-scale encounters? If so, how could we improve this?

They should have a role.. all boybands simply run melee comp with 2hander for more pressure AND utility.. Its either 1 of the 2 imo

Do you believe that a two-handed tank should have access to a 50% Guard?

No, 87% parry and running with a melee dps, having pressure on assist target AND have the utility box at your disposal quite frankly, I`m the only one seeing the problem?

Do you believe that a two-handed tank is more attractive for Scenarios & Small-scale encounters? If so, why?

There was simply no reason to take a snb tank, now there is..

Do you believe that two-handed tanks are overperforming? If so, how?

see above, sure you can answer the question.

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Esperflame
Posts: 156

Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#29 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:38 pm

1) Do you have a Tank?

I have all the tanks. Black Orc 74, Ironbreaker 66, Knight of the Blazing Sun 62, Chosen 59, Swordmaster 58 and Black Guard 57.

2) What perspective are you speaking from (6-man, Solo, or WB)?

I mostly speak from a 6-man/Solo aspect but I do participate in Warbands lately.

3) What are your thoughts?

Guard has nothing to do with shields. Sure you may prevent guard damage with a shield but the point of Guard is to put yourself between an ally and the enemies attacking him. This is why the tank guarding suffers half the damage. Look, I'm not very big into playing 2h tanks. Out of my 6 tanks only 2 use a 2h and one of those(Black Orc) only because of the loss of the only real SnB ability that had damage. I think maybe instead of trying to nerf 2 hander tanks maybe you should look to reverting many of the SnB nerfs you put on BO, Chosen and Knight. Remember when Dire Shielding used to punish AoE bomb groups? It can't now because of an ICD you added to bane shield which says if I hit 6 people with that one chosens Bane Shield, I only take one hit even though it's supposed to smack my face 6 times for it's dmg which isn't much.

Many Chosens and Knights run a 2hander because they want that 10 second cooldown on the punt like they used to have even in SnB. You've removed all these tools SnB tanks used to have forcing players to play a 2h just to use the tools they used to have. Hell before Black orc lost Tree-hit Combo on SnB, I swore up and down to everyone I'd never go with a 2h BO. But then you nerfed it, and I wanted my one tool of some dmg so I dropped my shield. If you wanna punish DPS tanks, maybe look at Focused Offense and punish those tanks who want to be a dps. I run a 2h because I want a little burst and it's all in one move on my BO. I spend all my RR on defense and run 5 piece conq for the extra toughness and the wounds proc to help me stay alive. I'm already taking more damage by using a 2hander because I've dropped my shield and have reduced my chance to prevent the damage outright by about 50%. But when I guard someone, I do it knowing full well that I may be getting roughed up a bit more, but I'm still putting my big green butt between my ally and that damage.
Karnak (Ironbreaker), Hadebrandt (KotBS), Quigon (Swordmaster), Rakthraka (Black Orc), Thulza (Chosen), Braerithryn (Blackguard)

"Yeah, I play all the tanks. I've got beef!" - Me

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abodam
Posts: 122

Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#30 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:00 pm

1) RR67 BG
2) SCs, 6v6,6vX

Guard: The change itself
I disagree with this change as it completely removes the "tank" part of tank archetype when wielding 2Handed weapon.
There needs to be split between 2H tanks who play utility for the group and two handed tanks who play for damage.
First group of tanks puts priority on Guarding your buddy/CC for your buddy/debuff for your buddy/damage.
Second group of tanks puts priority on debuffs on damage done by himself and might not even guard.

If you wanted to target these "loldps tanks" playing around with Focused Offence might be good approach.
Removing armour penalty but cannot use guard for example is one of options.

Reasoning behind said changes
Yes SnB was under represented in small scale, but on the same page, two handers are under represented in RvR and WB fights.
If we take BG as a example and pick out few abilities (not gonna pick skills and tactics which can be used by both or block buff)
2H brings: 3s KD with no requirements, 10s Punt, 10% chance to be crit debuff
SnB brings: 2-5s KD based on hate and requires previous block, 20s Punt, and I will count Force of Fury too, as I would never go that high with 2H to spec it personally.
Force of Fury is stackable armor buff with 90+ hate reduces all damage by 6% and reduced chance to be crit by 45% from current chance.

I would say improving punt on SnB or allowing to use KD without block but reducing it to max 4s (5s KD would feel probably too strong). Or buffing Force of Fury to reduce chance to be crit by raw number. Just quick ideas.

I would say improving SnB specs would be more welcomed change to all tank players as they would have options to pick from and more option usually equals more fun.

Thanks for reading.
Magus / BG

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