Wam/TUP Destro Pug Warband Template

[Wam]

Wam/TUP Destro Pug Warband Template

Some Useful Links

ROR list of gear sets

Spoiler:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0 (might be outdated... there was a patch notes with a more updated version viewtopic.php?f=42&t=29287&hilit=server+patch+notes Spoiler under items (above guilds))

ROR offical discord

Spoiler:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=22044&hilit=return+ ... ng+discord

ROR offical character builder

Spoiler:

https://officialrorbuilder.herokuapp.com/career/chosen

get tome unlock jewlery

Spoiler:

The Winds Impervious (0/3):
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=13566&hilit=all+tome+unlock see tome unlock guide here (important)

Okay firstly this is just a post/rough guide of some of the basics of large scale orvr/warband setup related... this is high recommendations for new players / pugs in general. "Best" is subjective, but using things that will be discussed below is a general step in the right direction.

Introduction

Spoiler:

Destro is often outnumbered at off peak times so I guess I should try put some semi useful information together to help players organise themselves easier and adopt to such things.

I will focus on a Bomb pug warband template with some variables taking into consideration it is pug and not guild... but also keeping it real. Ofc there is other ways to build groups, there is many ways all with different pro/cons.

Maybe I will add melee train setup eventually, tanks should stay the same, in the dps department basically replace sorc with 4 Mara, 1 ZDPS, 1 choppa for pulls, Witch Elf, 2H BG (or just 7 Mara and 1 zdps) if you don't want diversity LOL... this morale bomb potential rivals BW and Mara is a solid counter to BW) Healers still need 4 heal zealots, then you got choices of potential melee heal doks/pure heal doks or morale pump shamans... to morale pump you become very niche and one dimensional i.e shaman has to sacrifice 2 tactics to morale pump properly and each group will have less impact healing (from dok) if shaman replace, so thats more pressure on zealot... but you would have 4 puddles to place down to give some control if placed well)

Ok ideal Bomb Group for destro will talk more about choices further below so people don't get angry/misguided/confused below

Warband Setup

Spoiler:

P1
Chosen SNB
Bork SNB
Sorc AOE
dps slot ****
Dok Heal
Zeal Heal

P2
Chosen SNB
Bork SNB
Sorc AOE
DPS Zealot
dok Heal
zeal Heal

P3
Chosen SNB
Bork SNB
sorc AOE
Dps Slot ****
dok Heal
Zeal Heal

p4
Chosen SNB / SNB BG (if you really have too)
Bork SNB
Sorc AOE
Dps Slot ****
Shaman Heal
Zealot Heal

Setup archtype Tanks

Spoiler:

you want a 2-2-2 setup in each party.

Tanks you want these to be proper tanks, SNB only, knowing to spam HOLD the Line follow leader provide a meat wall to block enemy, knowing when and where to use CC (interupt enemy tanks raze bomb or push/flank) There are 8 tank spots, chosen and black ork synergise the best in large scale. (small scale is a different matter)

Double Chosen is okay, Double bork can also work, but one of each is best... and for arguements sake, I would say maybe you could make one SNB blackguard viable for warband in a pug enviroment but you give up alot and gain very niche but its a good niche... if you know enemy setups well (i.e who is leader or MA) in some fights in certain terrain punt them off can have a positive effect.

If desperate then beggars cant be choosers and you take even more Blackguard SNB to fill spots to play "purely as basic tanky tank guard bots" (Hold the line spam, challenge, CC, root, potion use etc, taunt interupt channel/rez" (they are pretty selfish tanks and don't bring as much utility/support as other tanks who shine more in this enviroment)
You want a solid frontline, and should maybe desginate a chosen to protect being flanked with stagger, and black ork with emergeny knockback on the sides to buy healers/range a few seconds to readjust.

ok now is time to mention Tank dps... this is tricky, because usually tank dps is a liability in large scale (2h knight use to be good, 2h chosen use to be good long time ago) but Blackguard is the one 2h Tank that is worth considering to take in large scale... it actually brings more to the team than a SNB Blackguard (which don't in comparison to other SNB tanks) the main issue is that where does it belong... "is it a Tank spot, is it a dps spot" if you drop a shield tank for its more aggressive and risky (especially when fighting more you want to be sturdy enough) and the guard damage it would need to take, you would want to guard something that can handle it self well with/without guard like a good magus to reduce the damage recieved. But Ideally you would consider 2h BG, just a DPS healer in the dps slots. (It will improve the chance to crit enemy(crimson death) which will improve entire warbands damage so that is why its worth and has solid AOE, the main issue is can take awhile to build mechanic)
As a tank if you are lower level/renown ideally you are shield tank because it helps your survaibility and allow you to do your basic function of a tank, survive / protect dps / team.

Setup archtype DPS

Spoiler:

Now that dps healer as been slightly touched upon... these are great and every warband should try aim to have one of these, Ideally it is a Zealot DPS so you can debuff rez/armour/heal debuff ... the issue with DPS healers to work you need rr 60+ and very solid gear to be effective otherwise it is pretty wasted. Their job is to dps/debuff/cc, they take up a dps spot (you will need other pure healers)

If you do not have a zdps, then a DPS dok with heal debuff is next best... but it brings the whole range vs melee thing in RVR, if you are fighting superior numbers ideally you have a ranged setup so you kite and chip away at enemy... if you have a melee heavy setup then you have to overly commit to do anything meaningful damage, and the issue with this and target caps is the side with bigger mass will have a superior advantage and can soak up said damage while dishing some back... but you are dismounted and fully engaged and thus alot more vunerable to flank. Not saying Melee setup can't work, it can if numbers was even be very solid, just its more "one dimensional" and unforgiving in a outnumbered enviroment. (Its like having a melee 6 man without WL/Mara for pull engage, easy to kite)

Shaman dps is not ideal for warband play in comparison to other classes in dps spot... but shaman healer still as a place (also shaman is better in gank group)

Sorcs
These are the bread and butter of your warband... ideally you want 4 minimum, 3 if you are desperate anything less and your composition is not looking too healthy. If you want to go overkill then 6 maximum Imo... but its pug WB so thats why there needs to be some flexibility in mind and destro is a bit more flexible in dps department than order. These bring your raw damage, and improve damage of your groups and its ranged so ideal for kiting and picking off superior numbers without having to over commit, and holding funnels and making superior numbers pay.


So there is some competition for your three dps slots, which do you take / want... this gives you a bit of flexibility in your setup and makes everybody as happy as they can be I guess even if their class is less suited to such things which effects the intergrity of your warband and ability to perform if you bring too many unsuited specs/characters to the group. (If you wish to beat superior numbers should generally bring something with more synergy and ideal)

In the past in guild warbands I tried to appease people by bringing lesser tiered large scale classes but it is not worth in my opinion if you want to be succesful and win, and yes I know this is a pug template so more "relaxed" generally... but guildies know I can be pretty calm and relaxed just when it comes to warband composition I don't want to sacrifice everyone's fun and enjoyment by bringing something that is a bit obsolete to the setup and they understand this. In a pug people would be QQ more I get that, I want to play my class and screw everybody else... instead of having team ethos and thinking hey what does the team need or how can I improve... its just different mentalities and depends on your personality which will vary from player to player. It is what it is

Magus

Ideally rifter spec (yes I know other spec can do decent damage in stationary fights) but against bigger numbers fights usually not stationary, also rifter can do okay damage and brings good utility, and in a funnel enviroment too can cause nice disruption. The stagger from pets is nice tool for kiting also and protecting flanks, rift can help you kill over extenders / people out of position without over engaging enemy... I recommend 1-2 of these usually although of course it is possible to play without one (any class for that matter) its just a very nice "opener/engager" that can make or break close fights, it can also help focus your bomb (aoe dmg)

Marauder
Mara is in a tricky position... because its very good all rounder, its a high tier wb character... I would recommend 1 Mara usually (for this setup purposes, for other setup purposes Mara is the second class to stack on destro... you could stack mara debuffers or mara dps (i prefer dps option and especially vs more numbers you need to kill fast))) the issue with Mara is its range, and sorc can out raw damage (not taking morales into equation) its nice tanky, can do good damage in dps monstro build with good crit, has good CC (pull, aoe knockdown, and nice debuff also)

DPS Variety In Setup

Spoiler:

Then the three other dps classes that are left...

So DPS slots are a premium, half should be filled by sorcs(4), 1 by dps healer(zdps ideally)... 3 spots left, and one or two of those really should (doesn't have to be but should being key word) be one Magi, one Mara... then you also have DPS BG to consider...

SH use to be OP long time ago before nerf, it is pretty nice and more ideally suited to roaming where it has more value... (it can do nasty debuffs, but its AOE potential can't be compared to other classes... nasty debuffs vs outnumbered foes cant justify it alone without DPS to back up a DPS slot)

WE can do some nice things, but its suited more to gank... it can't compete with sorc but still has some minor value
Choppa... in the right hands at high RR/good gear it can also do some nice things but again its not on the same level as what a Sorc/Magi/Mara can bring to the table in my opinion. (Choppa needs a gank group built around it to perform in small scale) It still has some value as a DPS but compared to other classes it just doesn't bring as much to the table in large scale.

As for the 8th dps spot (if not another sorc/magi/mara) that will be purely RNG

But in a pug you won't always have ideal choices, you will have to make adjustments to what you have available (which will vary drastically) but it doesn't stop you from working towards something and this is a predominately a ranged setup for a reason... and if you get a core group enabled then can build the rest around that also.

Dps slots are important because they impact/dictate your style the most, if you want to kill bigger numbers, you need real firepower that is why you have to limit obsolete classes and play to your realms strengths, no point going into a gun fight with a spoon.

Setup archtype healers

Spoiler:

Ok this is about synergy between healers now (partially rest of group too)
Ideally you want 4 heal zealots one for each party...
then you would like 3 doks
then you want your little git in party 4.
Why Wam?
Well Zealot as the best synergy with other healers... it brings alot to the table
The debate then (again it depends on setup) dok vs shaman. You could make the case for 2 dok, 2 shaman

Before we use to stack more doks because of Shatter limbs being a strong counter play from order to groups that didn't have doks... but with change to cleanse tactic with dungeons etc, and change with bork fasta to black orks, and change to shaman's and also order groups not making as much use out of SL as they use too... means that Meta slightly changed but

Dok's burst aoe sustain is very good, so for bomb/choke fights and under pressure (moving inside the bomb) a dok lashing in the bomb can put out alot of heals, the main issue for dok just like in roaming, is healing on the move and that takes some experience and good decision making. Another reason also was server lag, this use to screw over shamans the most in fights because you couldnt hot everyone etc, and also your co-ordination with your zealot buddy if you was both aoe healing at the same time that over heal is wasted... so there is reasons why.

A reason for another shaman also will be another puddle to protect flank or slow down front... (puddle from shamans is one of best abilities in game and most annoying same as AM) but also, shamans are the best for rezzing, having a fast recovery and getting people who been pulled back in the game and in a safe spot is very very important especially for pugs when people will tend to die more in bad positions (DRWHO is a beast at this) if you have 2 shamans who spread out, and are instant rezzing warband up, if you split and kite... it will take alot more effort to grind you down and in some fights you will tire out enemy, or eventually help will be on the way, and if enemy is dismounted and you get help then they are very easy to flank etc. So shaman's have worth, as Hotter/aoe heal/puddle/instant rez git. (in Other setups you can even use shamans to morale pump team but for zergbusting not needed in range team)

CORE CLASSES

Spoiler:

Tanks
3-4 Chosen
4 Bork just to block doors
(1 SNB BG is ok if you want to punt enemy leader/MA in the river/lava/off mountain probably best to replace chosen in p4, get resistance buff from shaman, toughness from shaman HOT) (Bork fasta and stealing stats harder to replace) Ideally 0 as chosen is better in large scale but for variety and not underestimate leader punting (cut off head of snake and all that... people have tried doing it to me multiple times in our guild warband in the past (from ib) but I have other people to take over straight away )

Healers
4 Zealot important backbone.
3 Dok is good but if you have 2-2 split with Shammies its not the end of the world... pro's and con's to both setups Better sustain vs better Kite/rez. Dok's can generally cope better under pressure in the bomb and also can help with Action points of wb which helps dps also.
1 Shammy, 2 is ok... anymore not really ideal in this setup unless despearate for healers.

DPS
4 Sorc (3-6) you need the range firepower
1 ZDPS you need the debuffs to help the synergy

Then 3 slots to pick from... all are viable (just some more on others, but will depend on "comms" "experience" "renown" "gear" "synergy"
(this is for zerg busting by the way which means versus superior numbers... not just standard warband vs warband where different things are more effective in that enviroment (like a SH and choppa can be alot more useful in fights like this instead of lower down the preference list by my experience)
0 - 2 Magi
0 - 1 Mara
0 -1 Witch Elf
0 - 1 2H BG
0 -1 Choppa
0 -1 SH
0 - 1 Dps Dok (if no ZDPS)

Thats as inclusive as i can be with advice without knowingly "gimping" your warband setup... every class as a potential role though.
Just no love for DPS Shammy (they like dps AM are solo annoyers) but heal shammy sure.
no 2h Bork no 2h Chosen (they are inferior to shield in large scale and more suited to gank group... they also die too fast if commited in big fights in comparison to a SNB tank that can actually tank and stand its ground)

Setup continued

Spoiler:

I always keep in mind that its made for pugs, so with that in mind it as flexible as it can be class wise whilst trying to maintain its optimum efficeny...

As a warband you need to have each part work properly for you to achieve your goals, that's why balanced warbands are usually the best, otherwise there is too much pressure in different deparments if you have a skewed setup with a lack of tanks, dps or healers... aim for 2-2-2 Balance ideally.

Each Party should be balanced and have 2-2-2 Setup... if you can't do this, try to get as many groups as balanced as possible with overflow in party 4 (ideally full warband so UI is not broken RIP P4 If so)

2 Tanks, 2 DPS, 2 Healers per a group... don't be affraid to kick people if they are not following or playing something useless, i.e 2handed tanks of wrong class, healers in healer slot who are dpsing more than healing... or if you are stacked with too many obsolete dps classes that are underperforming... (class that underperform at large usually strive in roam/6 man gankers) the opportunity cost is way too high if you bring too many witch elves/choppas/squig herders and not enough sorcs, they are good in small scale but suck badly in large in comparison to others... I.e Sorc brings more raw damage, Magi bring more utility, MDPS struggle to measure up to either im affraid in zergbusting (besides Mara which is good but not as good (lack of range) although its morale bomb is niche)

Ideally Destro would run 2-3 pug warbands like this in a zone... and if you was getting zerged, you would come together to counter zerg and support each other's flanks... Order would have a hard time dealing with such firepower and utility... unless they was also very organised / or just super mass stacked wiping one warband by one warband instead of facing all together at the same initial time.

TL DR Version = stay with leader, always forward, do not flee



Play to your class and realm strengths.

Spoiler:

Tanks
Tanks should be tanks, focus on survial, i will list solid starter gear and basics of tanking later... no dps wannabee heros you break balance of your party and melt without shield in Orvr, dead tank = useless and takes too much heals away from dps if squishy. Know how to fight walking backwards. (use hold the line and CC buy your team valuable seconds)
DPS... should be AOE and proper dps classes, no point bringing a spoon to a gun fight, if you play a small scale hero class stick to 6 man / ganking and make something useful for warband.
Small margins make a big difference in close fights... so the less useless classes/specs/tactics the better. Know to pull back before tanks and support melting the front lines of enemy over extenders.
Know who the main assist is and focus damage in that particular area. (will talk about add on's later very important)
Healers... focus on aoe heals, each class varies a bit... Zealot pre hot, ritual know when to use Focussed Mind (m2, and action point potions) , Shammy Pre hot / puddles / fast rez / also aoe heal... dok aoe heal and manage essence use lash to help your heal chain smoother, postioning and movement is everything use your tank shield in front to protect you... don't be affraid to run through your own bomb for protection, just know how to heal and fight on the move.

Tanks gear and renown

Spoiler:

Ruin then Conq, slot wounds talismans generally, and maybe one or two iniative talismans if needed also (higher rr makes this less needed with more points spent into futile strikes, after evasion is maxed) Tanks should aim for 10,000 hit points+... and maximise their evasion also whilst reducing their chance to be crit (renown in block, DD then parry (parry helps with guard dmg) Chosen's mixed defences helps with parry reducing guard dmg
Now there is vanquisher, sentinel and more but Conq is good enough imo. You can always Ruin into annihaltor gear and then mount gunbad (pve takes 3-4 hours generally on solid team) but alot of players are alergic to pve, cant time commit and also inexperienced / have trouble finding teammates.
get defensive SC weapons lvl 34-39 (45 not worth grind/time spent)
get tome unlock jewlery
The Winds Impervious (0/3):
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=13566&hilit=all+tome+unlock see tome unlock guide here (important)
Green belt with block, green cloak with toughness wounds inative is fine filler to begin with
or Farm Ravack cloak from T3 greenskin (north zone) its north east of warcamp in the mountains. (the cloak is racial, so make the team you want to kill it a racial pairing i.e chosen take a zealot (you can 2 man takes awhile but if good enough np) or take another chaos player mara or magi to speed it up) if you are black ork wanting take shaman and choppa/sh to farm it... if you are blackguard dok and sorc or WE etc... Its pretty solid cloak maybe you eventually get red eye cloak from mount gunbad, maybe you get gensis cloak from rr 41+ zone lock bags maybe you get beastlord cloak also from eataine (techincally Dragonwake right on edge but quest giver is eataine)

Healers gear and renown

Spoiler:

aim for Annilator gear asap, then conq or better(Anni/conq is solid, at higher level some heal classes might prefer different gear)... slot wounds talismans also... put renown into heal crit usually, then deft defender, futile strikes is good choices.
Belt t3 empire influence belt, conq belt, sentinel belt... green belt to avoid is okay filler early on (better than nothing)
Jewls same as tanks, you want 3 from the winds impervious... before you eventually upgrade into genesis jewlery and the like. See link above.
Sc weapons rr 34 or 39 are solid.
Cloak renown cloak is okay with wounds/tough/ini early on, beastlord cloak, red eye cloak are fairly good options afterwards.

Dps gear and renown

Spoiler:

Varies from class to class more than other archtypes... sometimes mixing can be ideal at lower level, getting 2-2-2 or some beastlord and merc together... now red eye is more of a thing for some classes and not too unobtainable early on from gunbad. Eventually then Conq or better when higher RR. (can buy merc gloves/boots from AH or dominator if renown is higher, personal choices.)

Slot your Primary atribute dps talismans (str/intel etc) maybe some Weapon skill on some physical dps if you already capped str. put your renown into to crit chance, maybe futile strikes if you have enough spare RR eventually and bad chance to be crit or some evasion (deft defender, reflexes etc)

Sc wep 34-39 is decent or subjugator from purple bags over rr41. (dont worry about rr 45 sc weapons you need to spend like 100-200 hours compared to 5 hours for rr39 and the difference is minimal)
t3 belt influence reward from empire is again good for crit.

Jewlery whatever improves your primary offensive stat and wounds is not a bad combination to begin with pre genesis. (Beastlord jewl usually takes up one of four spots)

Check out tome unlock jewlery and maybe something from there is good filler to begin with... check AH maybe buy something fancy from gunbad if it suits... or just buy green wounds / primary stat jewls or use the renown vendor merchants to get tripple green stats which are useful to your character in the starter phase... defensive jewlery from tome unlock is a bit excessive and not really needed as your role is to kill things.

Tanks basics

Spoiler:

once your gear/renown is sorted, you need to know what you are doing

Holding the line is your friend, its one of your best abilities just like taunt, challenge and guard... so please use them as much as you can in the right way. Know how to walk and fight going backwards if needed.

Spam hold the line provide a shield wall for your allies behind you, body block destro from getting past... create some space for your dps and healers to work.

Taunt, use this on healers aoe healing or rezzing... even on lazy tanks on destro who are holding the line interupt them they might forget to reapply hold the line...

Challenge... sometimes just challange their pack of dps and stand to the side can be enough to turn fights in your realms favour.

Guard... always guard your dps, if you don't guard your not tanking and you are a waste of a spot and should not be in a warband or party for that matter, its like a support healer not healing. Also learn to swap guards during fights and even guard other tanks if they are pulled and in trouble. Stay in guard range, you should be near main assist, dps should be near main assist.

CC... learn when and how to use this, please don't be that random swordmaster (or black ork) that just spam's knockback for fun and grants free immunities to everyone... (if you give them free immunities too early they can morale bomb and run you and your realm over with impunity) but if you see them charging you or flanking then it is worth using or if the terrain is in your favour, sometimes a well placed CC is better than a deathblow.

Auras for Chosen resistances, Anti healing Aura, toughness is generally okay default for support snb Chosen (surviability is key, order can do big morale bomb way eventually so will need to survive this as much as possible)

Bork Fasta for Borks, make a bind when you use it so teammates are aware, save for pushes or counter pushes in clutch moments will help some classes out alot.

Healers basics

Spoiler:

Pre hot players on engage...
Aoe Heal spam alot... (doesnt require Line of sight)
Remember to cleanse as much as possible (Dok's in particular)
Zealot always drop ritual for AP
Shammy be ready to drop puddle to counter flanks/melee pushes from order (puddle is one of most annoying abilities in game)
know how to use morale 2 focussed mind to counter pushes, or with pushes ... use it and pop Action point potions for more healing in clutch situations to keep party alive just enough to wipe enemy.
Wait for Gaps on rezzing maybe someone else already doing, try not to over rez and forget about healing party.

Dps Basics

Spoiler:

Kill stuff
Jokes aside, just learn your class and rotations... pretty sure there will be more individual information on this forums for classes. Having right gear/tactics/morales/talismans and then team synergy is good starting place.
Assist main assist (see add on section for swift assist and use this) have a focal point where you want to damage.

Also potions...

Spoiler:

always use +armour potion, always use +primary attribute potion (or liniment if rich/gunbad farmer)
use crafted Absorb potion, health regen potion, instant healing potion, also buy instant healing potion with officer medals at vendor. This is your best way to counter morale bomb with correct use of CC and movement. (they have different cooldowns) some characters might want action point potions also one crafted, one bought from vendor with medals.
Also try not to go alone ahead of your army and feed enemy zerg combat morale, order can have strong morale bomb do not need to feed.

Add ons

Spoiler:

https://tools.idrinth.de/addons/

Updated Enemy, Swift assist and buffhead are the ones you really should have no excuse not to use... there are other good one's as well (pure as a example)

Fixing enemy (not 100% sure if this is the latest)
viewtopic.php?f=66&t=21344

Swift Assist add on... assist your Main assist and stop doing random things.
viewtopic.php?f=66&t=26643&hilit=enemy+ ... all+in+one

Tanks
Chosen SNB

Spoiler:

https://officialrorbuilder.herokuapp.co ... ,4779,4773
resistance,toughness, heal debuff aura's. (Tzeentchs reflection is next skill to take higher rr level, eventually at high RR level you can drop flawless armor tactic (with better gear and more RR points spent into crit reduction) and can rotate to find a tactic that works for you there's a few solid choices but thats high level.
HTL

Bork SNB

Spoiler:

https://officialrorbuilder.herokuapp.co ... ,4462,4481
Da biggest warcry
HTL, and don't spam knockback and give out free immunties like they are candy... think about the value of KB...

Blackguard SNB

Spoiler:

https://officialrorbuilder.herokuapp.co ... 20,927,897
Its very selfish spec, lacks utility etc compared to other tanks so thats why I overlook it greatly in large scale as its so niche.

2H Blackguard

Spoiler:

https://officialrorbuilder.herokuapp.co ... 13,911,897
Alot more useful than its SNB counterpart, nasty debuffs, decent aoe, decent survial, main issue is the hate building can be slow in proper big fights so its hard to always take full advantage of mechanic.

DPS
Sorc

Spoiler:

https://officialrorbuilder.herokuapp.co ... ,5429,5399
Sorc has alot of rotatable tactic choices, like Frozen fury is good (but need to be careful in double sorc party) If intel is good enough from gear(renown etc eventually dont need to run endless knowledge tactic, it will just help lowbies not get disrupted as much and do a bit more damage for starter sorcs... also can drop piercing shadows if generally doing longer/max range bombing/pressure)
Spam ice spikes, infernal wave, surging pain on the move, at frontlines use disastrous cascade... (gloom of night is bonus fluff damage for ranged fights)
Spam pit of shades at ranged stand off fights/chokes usually around keeps (it doesnt overlap, but some pressure is better than none)
Also spam shattered shadows at oil (on keeps that are not broken) Ideally find a proper target to spam shattered shadows on, i.e MDPS, a turret, a pet lion, a rdps... a 2hander tank is favourite choice because they like to stay still and do nothing and think they are safe not realising they killing everybody around them because they dont use a shield lol. SNB Tanks and Healers are bad choice because of high Disrupt but sometimes they are only choice.

Magi

Spoiler:

https://officialrorbuilder.herokuapp.co ... ,5093,5119
rift when leader calls it, or rift over extenders at every opportunity... don't spam mines to give out free immunties, save them for if you are being flanked / falling back, or if you get a opportunity to stagger the healers in the back while team focuses the front (but dont over stagger with chosens) best to make a Macro to say whenever you are rifting also so makes local people aware.

ZDPS - requries rr 60

Spoiler:

https://officialrorbuilder.herokuapp.co ... ,5713,5703
Not too much point running ZDPS unless high enough geared/renown it is pretty squishy and takes some skills/protection but can be potent

Dps Dok - requires rr 60

Spoiler:

https://officialrorbuilder.herokuapp.co ... 7,4985Will need alot of protection but can help somewhat furfil the zdps role if you are lacking one.

Mara

Spoiler:

https://officialrorbuilder.herokuapp.co ... ,5217,5196
Mara can do decent aoe dmg (not sorc levels) fairly tanky, good utility... time knockdown on backline when you push/pressure the front...

WE

Spoiler:

Less useful than other classes because just spam the aoe dmg, no utility because Kiss mechanic has 1s internal cd, you can get max 1 hdbuff outgoing or 1 init debuff out per second
Build one
https://officialrorbuilder.herokuapp.co ... ,5601,5604
Alternative spec
https://officialrorbuilder.herokuapp.co ... ,5611,5604

Choppa

Spoiler:

Is not really on mara level for large scale, it can do okay damage and its little pull (which sometimes can be counterproductive with the free immunities it gives out) but its better than nothing...
https://officialrorbuilder.herokuapp.co ... ,4687,4670

SH

Spoiler:

cannot compete with Mara, cannot compete with Sorc or Magi either... Its more suited to ST assist (gank groups) than AOE in large scale, melee squig is very overhyped and fodder for bigger number of enemies or organised ones. You have to build setup around SH for it to have some impact in larger scale and even then takes awhile and very niche m4-co ordination... which then lacks any real follow up.
something like this brings something to warband with Pierce defenses, some aoe dmg and heal debuff.
https://officialrorbuilder.herokuapp.co ... ,5499,5538

Healer
Zealot

Spoiler:

https://officialrorbuilder.herokuapp.co ... ,5707,5716
Depends on state of the zone but these tactic choices are solid enough for most instances.

Dok

Spoiler:

https://officialrorbuilder.herokuapp.co ... ,4980,5005
There are a couple other tactic choices but this brings most to group and self sustain should be good enough.

Shaman

Spoiler:

https://officialrorbuilder.herokuapp.co ... 0,5292Also
Green Cleanin' can also be good tho (not even including movement speed or detaunt as not really needed if warband dies then its over)

Mini Bomb Squad If you lack numbers... (2FG)

Spoiler:

If you guys are struggling for numbers and want to maximise what you have got with people who want to make the most of what they have then i would suggest a 12 man bomb group (2 fg) to support whoever as purely random pug warband... use them as the meat shields and they use you as the firepower.

At bare minimum i would suggest you make this half your organised warband, then rest of warband traditonal 2-2-2 PUG... if you don't bring sorc or mara stacked your warband is going to struggle with proper damage/threat... and bigger numbers will just run you over, no matter how well you flank someone if your setup does not have damage tactics do not matter even if they are great tactics.

Chosen - SNB (same builds)
Bork - SNB
Sorc - Bomb (aoe)
Sorc - Bomb (If running two sorc in same party, the lowbie sorc should use slight tactic change to buff higher RR/geared sosorcs damage)
Zealot - Heal
Dok - Heal

Chosen - SNB
Bork - SNB
Sorc - Bomb
Magi - Rifter
Zealot - Heal
Shaman - Heal

Magi and shaman will give you good engage/disengage tools... and more control, sorc and magi will bring aoe damage
Tanks and healers provide the sustain needed.

Tactics

Spoiler:

That is up to each respective warband leaders decision making (if you want to make more fancy or just keep it simple)... having everyone or most people on comms makes it easier but if you are going to lead via written chat then it makes sense to have some short direct messages macro'd ready to use in combat (so you don't have to stop type everytime while should be playing and leading)
Basically commands which address
Regroup with me Fast
Counter Funnel
Counter Push
Hold your ground
Kite
Morale Status
Morale in 3 - 2 - 1
Flank...
These are just some things that leader can put in their own words for macro's to make leading even easier, then its about map awareness, scouting, discipline/sticking together ... a good engage. If conditions are really bad and map is pretty bad, team with some allies to try make it a more even playing field.
Depends how much you are outnumbered, and strength of your warband you can do... 1-2 numbers is okay, when its 1-3, 1-4 numbers and target cap, mass becomes a big issue and less likely... I know how both sides like to zerg and just run full zone blobs. Either pre kite hard and make them overextend / mistakes... or use defensive terrain with a good choke point which makes it harder for you to be flanked.

Thanks

Spoiler:

Anyways cheers for reading... hope it helps some destro get more organised and fight blob with fire. Now both sides have easily obtainable advice in one place for large scale... now its up to leaders to interpret their own style with their own decision making, use guide and you will have solid foundations to build from.

This is just simply the basics, could of gone into alot greater detail but do not want to overload anybody... if you do not use the better tools available and provided to you to face greater numbers you cannot always make excuse or put blame on others or balance and make random false accuastions of realm bias... if you do not look internally and ask what more you can do firstly.

Setup is very important and so often overlooked in large scale its beyond silly, there are alot of false ideas floating about and too much misinformation about some classes. There's a reason why 6 man's run the setups they do, and there's a reason why organised wb's make certain choices also. If you are on the underdog realm, you should read one of the guides i've provided and try to organise your warband into something similar that will give you half a chance if outnumbered and not constantly run out of sync/synergy insanity compositions (st/aoe you dont know what people bring and you dont have a main assist) then complain/quit/give up and think you've been hard done by. Where the truth is, with a little bit more organisation, a little bit more discipline and firepower alot of fun is just right around the corner... so I do not understand the reluctance to self improvement or realm improvement even if enemy numbers are worrysome for you. Good Luck Have Fun

Wam

[Wam]

*reserved to edit*

If people want a ST Gank group basics... will put a rough setup of that here eventually so people have options.

[Vaul]

This is a great read and I want to thank you, Wam, for sharing and posting in such detail.

[Wam]

This is a great read and I want to thank you, Wam, for sharing and posting in such detail.

yw mate, I saw destro get hammered over xmas break being outnumbered and in disarray a majority of the time with little attempt to get organised... so thought I would educate/share some knowledge in one place so its easier to find/digest. (already made guide in the past for order when they was getting dominanted, so its fair I do the same for destro) If people want to use or not up to them.

Its not the be all and end all just a very good starting point in my opinion, to expand on and develop into their own style and what works for them (although some tactic choices on some classes have been BIS for along time, sometimes things get tweaked/nerfed and some classes have a open 4th tactic choice to be made)

If you want to fight bigger numbers, you need each archtype aspect to be working effectively (tanks, dps, healers) if tanks/healers dont then you will melt, if dps dont then you kill nothing... especially against numerically superior foes.

[nebelwerfer]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88NxUlzrDbc[/youtube]

Tonight! Is the night of the WAM(!)pire!!

[Wam]

lets make it fair and do the same for destro (damn i am a dirty x realmer)

changes to target cap is major big change and somethings been nerfed a little since last update...

Biggest change beside that i can think of is
ZDPS has been completely gutted recently and nerfed to ground so its useless don't even bother its not worth... so avoid playing it like its a shadow warrior meme. Pure heal zealot is still very good though.


Tanks
Bork and chosen are still your go to pairing... but blackguard's value as increased with the target cap increase as it can debuff more people...

so you want 3 groups with bork/chosen combo... and 4th Bork/Blackguard ... and your blackguard you would want as 2hander to be honest if you want maximum returns... (snb is not end of world but its more selfish and narrow in what it brings, where 2hander can bring a bit more but needs good renown/awareness and positioning)

Chosen
despite nerfs, it still pretty good solid tank as aurabot/bodyguard ... not as good as once was but okay

Bork
Waaaagh... backbone of any destro warband... it goes well with chosen... (just like kotbs/sm on order)

Blackguard... it lacks morale pump so its morale is out of sync with rest of warband... it doesnt bring as much buffs to team compared to chosen/bork... but it can do nice snare, punt, and if 2hander make enemy team take increased crit chance and thus more damage... Blackguard performs better in smaller scale but still has a place in large thanks to target cap change.

Healers
Zealot... you want 4 heal zealots one per a party... zealots are well rounded, good mobile, aoe and anti burst healers and bring plenty of buffs

Dok... you want 3 of these in your groups... to cleanse, with borks waaagh to help counter being shutdown by slayer shatter limbs... they are good aoe healers and fairly tanky

Shaman... you want atleast one of these, for puddle to help control enemy train movements, if melee train or bomb group... shaman cant heal as good as dok or zealot but they do bring something to the table... you could even have more shamans also (there is also another approach you could bring with shaman stacking but its different mentality/playstyle and super kitey/blitzkrieg so i won't go into it that much and leave things fairly standardised)

RDPS
Sorc
You want atleast 4 of these... not as much raw damage as BW but better, easier to apply ranged damage in comparison... they are a top pick

Magus
these suffer similar issues to engi, in mobile warfare, having a rifter can be good if you facing very kite based enemy warbands... or for defensive/offensive sieges... but its hard for them to do actual damage on the move, its mostly fluff damage... not totally useless though they serve a purpose if played right just dont over stack them

SH
Depends if tradition ranged SH... or melee SH... traditional SH is hard to do ranged aoe dmg since it was nerfed a long time ago... but its ok niche gank but hard to compete with sorc... MSH is very niche and zerg friendly... its a bit yolo, not as good as sorc but can have a place if its played to high level

MDPS
Mara
Is borderline broken and OP... just thankfully not alot of top tier mara's around who know how to exploit its full potential... its probably the best well rounded class and in need of a slight tweak/nerf eventually and still should be solid all rounder because its that good. Tanky, Decent damage, utility, Morale dmg... It pretty much has everything just again people don't take full advantage of it yet, its very easy mode... you want multiple of these, especially since zdps got neutered.

Choppa
if you have BIS gear/high renown and a brain... you can do nice things on it... alot of it is positioning... can bring a different type of damage and high burst... it has a place although its pretty squishy... not as good as sorc/mara or slayer... but still pretty alrite in the right hands

Witch elf
go scout and report back to the realm and do your job =D
Witch elf is very tricky... because its very squishy and melee... it can do some nice burst, it can be a tank tin opener in right situations... but compared to sorc which can apply alot of pressure from range it has a hard time competing... then you get the utility that mara's bring with pulls/drains of morale/ap and ini debuff etc... then you got the choppa pulls and bursts from them...
it makes Witch elf have tough competition for places and needs to be played to a high level and needs alot of support to function properly... you could take one or two if setup for it... but you really need your other classes in place first. Its much better in smaller scale/gank/24v24 than in large.


good luck finding the class which suits your needs and playstyle

Destro is alot more flexible in the dps department compared to order... so you can run more mixed setups and expect good results... where order is very pigeon holed into more narrow setups for maximum results.

Aim for 2-2-2 tank/dps/healer setup and you should be fine if people know how to play their respective classes and follow your leader.

[ef1895]

After cdr of whaaaaaaag is outdated, how should blork bei skilled top mosh stuntiez very Well.