White Lion Changes (8/25/2018)

[nat3s]

Oh man, you read the part where I said YOU DON'T TAKE THE PET!!!!111!!11!!1!!!!!11! Also, any self respecting destro WB runs AoE armor debuff, compare the WS to that. Also you need 5pc conq on SW, good **** luck getting 1k WS.

About the 6v6 stuff you are like 110% wrong, maybe time to get involved even slightly in the scene? For the record I played both SW and SH extensively at renowns way past rr50. How many 6 mans use a skirmish SW for 6v6? How many uses a SH? The answer is that skirmish SW doesn't see ANY play, while a couple of premades do in fact pull out SHs.

Rubbish. SW is way stronger and part of the Order 6v6 meta. It does crazy dps. SH damage by comparison is too low to compete for spots. If you've played both as extensively as you claim, you'd be aware of the difference in dps pressure between the two.

And at this point I'm gonna say you don't even have a toe in anything related to 6v6. Again the only SWs you see are melee specced, because Skirmish has too low pressure and literally zero burst, and there's like what, a single aSW left that plays 6v6? SH has good pressure and superior burst to skirmish, although a bit limited aswell but not even close to a point where it's not a good pick.

Dunno where people got the impression that SH is bad, it has been used well in recent times. It obviously got hit a bit by removal of guards in Isha, but it's still perfectly viable.

We could go round in circles all day on this. Do yourself a favour a run a simple check if you have both classes, equip both with similar gear (full conq) and run a dps parse. Run glass cannon max weapon skill and ballistic skill. You'll see SH lags well behind in armour penetration (50% ish for the SH, 70%+ for the SW). Given your posts so far, you'll be shocked at how far behind SH is in damage. It's not simply ASW that is viable incidentally.

[dansari]

Not really.
Melee Squig has already been nerfed a few times.
It's fairly balanced overall. The only ability that might be a problem is the experimental ability "Outta My Way," which is not used in the way Torque envisioned it to be used- It's primarily used as an escape tool, but then again so is is "charge..."

You mean Choppas save Charge to exit fights because they have GTDC to brainlessly engage fights? Interesting..

[peterthepan3]

Rubbish. SW is way stronger and part of the Order 6v6 meta. It does crazy dps. SH damage by comparison is too low to compete for spots. If you've played both as extensively as you claim, you'd be aware of the difference in dps pressure between the two.

And at this point I'm gonna say you don't even have a toe in anything related to 6v6. Again the only SWs you see are melee specced, because Skirmish has too low pressure and literally zero burst, and there's like what, a single aSW left that plays 6v6? SH has good pressure and superior burst to skirmish, although a bit limited aswell but not even close to a point where it's not a good pick.

Dunno where people got the impression that SH is bad, it has been used well in recent times. It obviously got hit a bit by removal of guards in Isha, but it's still perfectly viable.

We could go round in circles all day on this. Do yourself a favour a run a simple check if you have both classes, equip both with similar gear (full conq) and run a dps parse. Run glass cannon max weapon skill and ballistic skill. You'll see SH lags well behind in armour penetration (50% ish for the SH, 70%+ for the SW). Given your posts so far, you'll be shocked at how far behind SH is in damage. It's not simply ASW that is viable incidentally.

SH > Skirmish SW for 6v6.

[lefze]

Rubbish. SW is way stronger and part of the Order 6v6 meta. It does crazy dps. SH damage by comparison is too low to compete for spots. If you've played both as extensively as you claim, you'd be aware of the difference in dps pressure between the two.

And at this point I'm gonna say you don't even have a toe in anything related to 6v6. Again the only SWs you see are melee specced, because Skirmish has too low pressure and literally zero burst, and there's like what, a single aSW left that plays 6v6? SH has good pressure and superior burst to skirmish, although a bit limited aswell but not even close to a point where it's not a good pick.

Dunno where people got the impression that SH is bad, it has been used well in recent times. It obviously got hit a bit by removal of guards in Isha, but it's still perfectly viable.

We could go round in circles all day on this. Do yourself a favour a run a simple check if you have both classes, equip both with similar gear (full conq) and run a dps parse. Run glass cannon max weapon skill and ballistic skill. You'll see SH lags well behind in armour penetration (50% ish for the SH, 70%+ for the SW). Given your posts so far, you'll be shocked at how far behind SH is in damage. It's not simply ASW that is viable incidentally.

I don't need to check anything, this is all common knowledge. It's just a select few "players" that keep insisting on SH being useless.

You realize that to tip past 70% armor pen you need exactly 980 WS (1120 WS against a zealot)? Even with Wrist Slash procced and in Assault stance you don't go that high. In fact, in ranged builds both SW and SH are sitting comfortably at around 500-650 WS assuming you don't go full retard. The fact of the matter is that in a 6v6, WS is a nice bonus if you can get it for free without gimping, but during a kill rotation with double (or in the case of destro a possible tripple) armor debuff WS looses pretty much all its value.

Assuming a medium target armor with blue armor pot and a few armor talismans making the armor go from 2,2k to 3,5k, under a double armor debuff the difference between 500 WS and 1000 WS is 8,12% mitigation from armor. Think about it, 8,12% more damage without taking into cosideration any other damage boosting/mitigating effects. And thats a 500 WS investment!!!!!

Factor in Zealot/RP increased armor/reduced armor pen tactics and the story changes a bit, the difference is up to 16,24% mitigation from armor as the remaining armor from the double debuff is increased by 1k. But then the difference also drops back just as fast if the target is a light armor class or didn't invest anything in armor talismans/uses green armor pot instead of blue.

Anyways, the point I'm trying to show here is that from the getgo you are comparing the classes with completely unrealistic values of a stat that isn't good to compare them with in the first place. SWs don't stack anymore WS that SHs do as it's a pointless. I mean you could go slot MA+IA and surf around in Assault stance with full WS talismans and maxed out WS from renown, but all those things are the exact opposites of what you SHOULD do. My RR74 SW is sitting at 538 WS in BiS gear, potential for another 60WS from lini, but that's about all there is any point in taking with the only exception being in a bomb spec.

And just for the record, I'm still assuming we are comparing ranged specs, Assault is obviously a different case, but the WS formula doesn't change depending on which spec you play anyways.

[sogeou]

And at this point I'm gonna say you don't even have a toe in anything related to 6v6. Again the only SWs you see are melee specced, because Skirmish has too low pressure and literally zero burst, and there's like what, a single aSW left that plays 6v6? SH has good pressure and superior burst to skirmish, although a bit limited aswell but not even close to a point where it's not a good pick.

Dunno where people got the impression that SH is bad, it has been used well in recent times. It obviously got hit a bit by removal of guards in Isha, but it's still perfectly viable.

We could go round in circles all day on this. Do yourself a favour a run a simple check if you have both classes, equip both with similar gear (full conq) and run a dps parse. Run glass cannon max weapon skill and ballistic skill. You'll see SH lags well behind in armour penetration (50% ish for the SH, 70%+ for the SW). Given your posts so far, you'll be shocked at how far behind SH is in damage. It's not simply ASW that is viable incidentally.

I don't need to check anything, this is all common knowledge. It's just a select few "players" that keep insisting on SH being useless.

You realize that to tip past 70% armor pen you need exactly 980 WS (1120 WS against a zealot)? Even with Wrist Slash procced and in Assault stance you don't go that high. In fact, in ranged builds both SW and SH are sitting comfortably at around 500-650 WS assuming you don't go full retard. The fact of the matter is that in a 6v6, WS is a nice bonus if you can get it for free without gimping, but during a kill rotation with double (or in the case of destro a possible tripple) armor debuff WS looses pretty much all its value.

Assuming a medium target armor with blue armor pot and a few armor talismans making the armor go from 2,2k to 3,5k, under a double armor debuff the difference between 500 WS and 1000 WS is 8,12% mitigation from armor. Think about it, 8,12% more damage without taking into cosideration any other damage boosting/mitigating effects. And thats a 500 WS investment!!!!!

Factor in Zealot/RP increased armor/reduced armor pen tactics and the story changes a bit, the difference is up to 16,24% mitigation from armor as the remaining armor from the double debuff is increased by 1k. But then the difference also drops back just as fast if the target is a light armor class or didn't invest anything in armor talismans/uses green armor pot instead of blue.

Anyways, the point I'm trying to show here is that from the getgo you are comparing the classes with completely unrealistic values of a stat that isn't good to compare them with in the first place. SWs don't stack anymore WS that SHs do as it's a pointless. I mean you could go slot MA+IA and surf around in Assault stance with full WS talismans and maxed out WS from renown, but all those things are the exact opposites of what you SHOULD do. My RR74 SW is sitting at 538 WS in BiS gear, potential for another 60WS from lini, but that's about all there is any point in taking with the only exception being in a bomb spec.

And just for the record, I'm still assuming we are comparing ranged specs, Assault is obviously a different case, but the WS formula doesn't change depending on which spec you play anyways.

I am sorry, maybe you forgot the fact a Melee SW can make the chance to be crit of the target 70%+. Remember how broken the combo with the SW and SM was? Both SH and SW have strengths and weakness. In a group setting both have a place. Melee SW was OP for a long time until they fixed the 100% chance to be crit debuff.

[lefze]

We could go round in circles all day on this. Do yourself a favour a run a simple check if you have both classes, equip both with similar gear (full conq) and run a dps parse. Run glass cannon max weapon skill and ballistic skill. You'll see SH lags well behind in armour penetration (50% ish for the SH, 70%+ for the SW). Given your posts so far, you'll be shocked at how far behind SH is in damage. It's not simply ASW that is viable incidentally.

I don't need to check anything, this is all common knowledge. It's just a select few "players" that keep insisting on SH being useless.

You realize that to tip past 70% armor pen you need exactly 980 WS (1120 WS against a zealot)? Even with Wrist Slash procced and in Assault stance you don't go that high. In fact, in ranged builds both SW and SH are sitting comfortably at around 500-650 WS assuming you don't go full retard. The fact of the matter is that in a 6v6, WS is a nice bonus if you can get it for free without gimping, but during a kill rotation with double (or in the case of destro a possible tripple) armor debuff WS looses pretty much all its value.

Assuming a medium target armor with blue armor pot and a few armor talismans making the armor go from 2,2k to 3,5k, under a double armor debuff the difference between 500 WS and 1000 WS is 8,12% mitigation from armor. Think about it, 8,12% more damage without taking into cosideration any other damage boosting/mitigating effects. And thats a 500 WS investment!!!!!

Factor in Zealot/RP increased armor/reduced armor pen tactics and the story changes a bit, the difference is up to 16,24% mitigation from armor as the remaining armor from the double debuff is increased by 1k. But then the difference also drops back just as fast if the target is a light armor class or didn't invest anything in armor talismans/uses green armor pot instead of blue.

Anyways, the point I'm trying to show here is that from the getgo you are comparing the classes with completely unrealistic values of a stat that isn't good to compare them with in the first place. SWs don't stack anymore WS that SHs do as it's a pointless. I mean you could go slot MA+IA and surf around in Assault stance with full WS talismans and maxed out WS from renown, but all those things are the exact opposites of what you SHOULD do. My RR74 SW is sitting at 538 WS in BiS gear, potential for another 60WS from lini, but that's about all there is any point in taking with the only exception being in a bomb spec.

And just for the record, I'm still assuming we are comparing ranged specs, Assault is obviously a different case, but the WS formula doesn't change depending on which spec you play anyways.

I am sorry, maybe you forgot the fact a Melee SW can make the chance to be crit of the target 70%+. Remember how broken the combo with the SW and SM was? Both SH and SW have strengths and weakness. In a group setting both have a place. Melee SW was OP for a long time until they fixed the 100% chance to be crit debuff.

This is about skrimish, not assault. As for the 70% debuff, prove it. I usually just do the math and show people it's anything but a fact as you call it, but just this once and I'm gonna leave that to you.

[altharion1]

Jeez you made the WL hard work now. Yeah with some buffhead, nerfed buttons and aura shenanigans its doable. But damn you really sucked the fun out of the class.

- The abilities just aren't there when you need them. Need to switch targets and drop a quick Cull the Weak to assist, sorry no wait 4 seconds on that stance CD
- The over lap of stance change animation and ability animation means its hard to get the visual tells of when an ability has fired. PArticularly annoying when swapping stances straight into a Coordinated strike
- The amount of stance swapping is excessive. Like every 2 abilities and its time to swap stances.

An all round frustrating experience.

[sogeou]

I don't need to check anything, this is all common knowledge. It's just a select few "players" that keep insisting on SH being useless.

You realize that to tip past 70% armor pen you need exactly 980 WS (1120 WS against a zealot)? Even with Wrist Slash procced and in Assault stance you don't go that high. In fact, in ranged builds both SW and SH are sitting comfortably at around 500-650 WS assuming you don't go full retard. The fact of the matter is that in a 6v6, WS is a nice bonus if you can get it for free without gimping, but during a kill rotation with double (or in the case of destro a possible tripple) armor debuff WS looses pretty much all its value.

Assuming a medium target armor with blue armor pot and a few armor talismans making the armor go from 2,2k to 3,5k, under a double armor debuff the difference between 500 WS and 1000 WS is 8,12% mitigation from armor. Think about it, 8,12% more damage without taking into cosideration any other damage boosting/mitigating effects. And thats a 500 WS investment!!!!!

Factor in Zealot/RP increased armor/reduced armor pen tactics and the story changes a bit, the difference is up to 16,24% mitigation from armor as the remaining armor from the double debuff is increased by 1k. But then the difference also drops back just as fast if the target is a light armor class or didn't invest anything in armor talismans/uses green armor pot instead of blue.

Anyways, the point I'm trying to show here is that from the getgo you are comparing the classes with completely unrealistic values of a stat that isn't good to compare them with in the first place. SWs don't stack anymore WS that SHs do as it's a pointless. I mean you could go slot MA+IA and surf around in Assault stance with full WS talismans and maxed out WS from renown, but all those things are the exact opposites of what you SHOULD do. My RR74 SW is sitting at 538 WS in BiS gear, potential for another 60WS from lini, but that's about all there is any point in taking with the only exception being in a bomb spec.

And just for the record, I'm still assuming we are comparing ranged specs, Assault is obviously a different case, but the WS formula doesn't change depending on which spec you play anyways.

I am sorry, maybe you forgot the fact a Melee SW can make the chance to be crit of the target 70%+. Remember how broken the combo with the SW and SM was? Both SH and SW have strengths and weakness. In a group setting both have a place. Melee SW was OP for a long time until they fixed the 100% chance to be crit debuff.

This is about skrimish, not assault. As for the 70% debuff, prove it. I usually just do the math and show people it's anything but a fact as you call it, but just this once and I'm gonna leave that to you.

I don't need to do anything. Go look on the forums there is an excel doc with graphs if that is how you need things pointed out for you. But, since you said you have a SW you should already know this and just being sassy.

[catholicism198]

Not really.
Melee Squig has already been nerfed a few times.
It's fairly balanced overall. The only ability that might be a problem is the experimental ability "Outta My Way," which is not used in the way Torque envisioned it to be used- It's primarily used as an escape tool, but then again so is is "charge..."

You mean Choppas save Charge to exit fights because they have GTDC to brainlessly engage fights? Interesting..

You say that as if other classes don't use charge the same way...

[TenTonHammer]

You say that as if other classes don't use charge the same way...

Lets not forget tanks and the like using flee as a charge as well