White Lion Changes (8/25/2018)

[Ridduk]

So many pussies on Destro....keep giving in to their whiny demands, ror team.

You serious ?

Yes i am serious ,although my wording of the issue was somewhat harsh. My apologies

Some ppl are better at this game than others. Just the way it is. If you come across said persons 1v1 or 6v6 they are probably gonna wreck you. Doesnt necessarily mean their class is op.

small tweaks here and there to classes are fine but revamping and gutting classes based on biased feedback will break this game.

[Morf]

The problem is the pet, pet is to weak in competitive/wb play and to strong in small scale pug play due to burst and mobility.

A quick fix to this would be changing how tactics react with the pet, pack synergy for example, just have the tactic give the player 50% crit damage but not the pet and not be reliant on having a pet out, combined with loner and or revenge you could see players choosing to run without a pet instead of the pet being a must.
You could also keep the guardian wl ideas of pet spec by having your tactics affect the pet but not yourself, so 50% crit, brute force, jagged edge etc etc buffed the pet not player, how idk, 3 lions for each mastery like squigs ?

Anyhow the simple way is just to nerf the pet and buff the player without the pet, u address all issues this way and dont need to overhaul the class.

[Wiede]

Is there a reason, all of the WL attacks except some base attacks are bound to a single stance rather than beeing bound to 2 stances like mara and sw skills?

I think that would give some potential for finetuning?

Also that inevitable need to stancedance in each and every situation is no fun especially when there are that much restrictions combined with a 5s cd.

[dansari]

WL was originally designed as a tank class, so I'm not sure that argument is placed correctly.

Well ever since Ive played the game (sometime in 2009), it filled MDPS slot for high elf race, while swordmaster being a tank.

Your post is irrelevant nitpicking anyway. But fine, let me rephrase: surely you want to stay somewhat loyal to the idea WL became and stayed for around 100% lifespan of this game (WAR + RoR combined)?

Point being that things change, and your original argument was that "live" should be considered, but as has been brought up countless times in the past, there are many different iterations of "live," each held by a veteran WAR player with their own biases, memories, etc. based on what they played, who they played with, when they stopped playing, when they started playing, et al ad nauseam. It has no purpose in the development of the game, particularly when it comes to balance. Regarding WL, Aza saw no way to keep the trees as they were and develop a viable warband build. Warband build and overall tree rationality > OP 1v1 spec.

At early stages of dev table? I have no recollection of them being tanks in game but maybe I wasn't paying enough attention early on.

They were originally designed to be the tank class, and the SM would be the high elf dps, but it was scrapped.

[catholicism198]

However, when comparing WL burst to WE/WH burst I have to say actually I feel like WL should be bursty, even more so than WE/WH. Why's that? Well first off: it was designed that way and even this is not live surely you want to stay somewhat loyal to original idea?

WL was originally designed as a tank class, so I'm not sure that argument is placed correctly.

At early stages of dev table? I have no recollection of them being tanks in game but maybe I wasn't paying enough attention early on.

Very early stages- kind of like arrer boyz, and orc shaman.

So many pussies on Destro....keep giving in to their whiny demands, ror team.

You serious ?

Yes i am serious ,although my wording of the issue was somewhat harsh. My apologies

Some ppl are better at this game than others. Just the way it is. If you come across said persons 1v1 or 6v6 they are probably gonna wreck you. Doesnt necessarily mean their class is op.

small tweaks here and there to classes are fine but revamping and gutting classes based on biased feedback will break this game.

So I guess that means I'm a pro when fighting against slayers and bright wizards, but a noob when fighting against IBs and Kobtss.
Skill/experience plays a roll when it comes to gear, renown investments, tactics, and general build setups.
There is no skill needed to press three buttons over and over. Even less to press two.

Guardian was broken. Everyone knew it.
Were the other mastery paths broken? No, but the class didn't have a role in what is essentially 99% of the game.

[soliticks]

WL was originally designed as a tank class, so I'm not sure that argument is placed correctly.

At early stages of dev table? I have no recollection of them being tanks in game but maybe I wasn't paying enough attention early on.

Very early stages- kind of like arrer boyz, and orc shaman.

You serious ?

Yes i am serious ,although my wording of the issue was somewhat harsh. My apologies

Some ppl are better at this game than others. Just the way it is. If you come across said persons 1v1 or 6v6 they are probably gonna wreck you. Doesnt necessarily mean their class is op.

small tweaks here and there to classes are fine but revamping and gutting classes based on biased feedback will break this game.

So I guess that means I'm a pro when fighting against slayers and bright wizards, but a noob when fighting against IBs and Kobtss.
Skill/experience plays a roll when it comes to gear, renown investments, tactics, and general build setups.
There is no skill needed to press three buttons over and over. Even less to press two.

Guardian was broken. Everyone knew it.
Were the other mastery paths broken? No, but the class didn't have a role in what is essentially 99% of the game.

In what aspect of gameplay was guardian broken? Was it 6 v 6? Was it in warbands? Say the words so we can stop dancing around the truth. “I, Catholicism198, believe that Guardian was broken because they were too powerful in a _____ group setting”. Fill in that blank for me. Tell the devs what you feel this game should be balanced around.

[Azarael]

You're better than this. Guardian was broken in every single format of the game.

It was broken in small scale because it allowed the master to spec defensively to boost the pet's damage. A good number of you are posting in defense of it because you knew it full well and were exploiting the hell out of it. I wasn't born yesterday, I know full well, and I don't really care about people getting their kicks from crushing other people solo with a class that has a huge advantage playing that way. It's not worthy of the slightest bit of respect.

It was broken in 6v6 because it produced outrageous extremes; either you'd crush people in a couple of GCDs or the pet would get annihilated and you'd be screwed over by that.

It was broken on warband level because the pet cannot survive, and because the idea which you and others are peddling so much of having trees based around you, the pet or a mix leads to three damage trees with a random smattering of pet-focused tactics that are designed to hackily cobble the whole thing together, and no COHESIVE design. Marauder has the cohesive design, and Order lacked that in a MDPS class (and in the current patch, still does, but that's another discussion). The entire realm suffers because you want a pet. That to me is far more valuable than any concerns about letting a NPC play the game for you.

It's been explained enough times in this thread. The problem is putting a pet on a melee class. It was a stupid idea from the beginning, and if White Lions had been a Marauder mirror and I had gutted the Marauder implementation to create the pet-based WL implementation, you would have been calling me an utter moron. And you'd have been right.

[sogeou]

At early stages of dev table? I have no recollection of them being tanks in game but maybe I wasn't paying enough attention early on.

Very early stages- kind of like arrer boyz, and orc shaman.

Yes i am serious ,although my wording of the issue was somewhat harsh. My apologies

Some ppl are better at this game than others. Just the way it is. If you come across said persons 1v1 or 6v6 they are probably gonna wreck you. Doesnt necessarily mean their class is op.

small tweaks here and there to classes are fine but revamping and gutting classes based on biased feedback will break this game.

So I guess that means I'm a pro when fighting against slayers and bright wizards, but a noob when fighting against IBs and Kobtss.
Skill/experience plays a roll when it comes to gear, renown investments, tactics, and general build setups.
There is no skill needed to press three buttons over and over. Even less to press two.

Guardian was broken. Everyone knew it.
Were the other mastery paths broken? No, but the class didn't have a role in what is essentially 99% of the game.

In what aspect of gameplay was guardian broken? Was it 6 v 6? Was it in warbands? Say the words so we can stop dancing around the truth. “I, Catholicism198, believe that Guardian was broken because they were too powerful in a _____ group setting”. Fill in that blank for me. Tell the devs what you feel this game should be balanced around.

Dude, you sound so salty. I also knew you would be one of the 3-4 other WL which abused the broken spec. My WL did more damage and had a better setup than yours and I can say for a fact the class was 100% OP. The fact you won't even agree and keep bring 6v6 stuff is pointless. The game was never balanced around that.

I could kill 3-4 people in a 1 v 3/4 without losing much health. The fact stacking toughness along with aoe detaunt which was almost always up along with a solid HoT ticking while doing 4-5k DPS with the highest mobility in the game. The fact you can GCD 9 out of the 12 destro classes was stupid. I could kill a target even if it had guard, does not really matter. You know all of this already tho.


All what needed to be done was change all the WL changes which were done in Nov- Jan. But, if that was done you would still be feeling the same way as you want to play a class which can kill someone in 2-3 seconds without doing anything back. Maybe you should check out the WH.

[sogeou]

You're better than this. Guardian was broken in every single format of the game.

It was broken in small scale because it allowed the master to spec defensively to boost the pet's damage. A good number of you are posting in defense of it because you knew it full well and were exploiting the hell out of it. I wasn't born yesterday, I know full well, and I don't really care about people getting their kicks from crushing other people solo with a class that has a huge advantage playing that way. It's not worthy of the slightest bit of respect.

It was broken in 6v6 because it produced outrageous extremes; either you'd crush people in a couple of GCDs or the pet would get annihilated and you'd be screwed over by that.

It was broken on warband level because the pet cannot survive, and because the idea which you and others are peddling so much of having trees based around you, the pet or a mix leads to three damage trees with a random smattering of pet-focused tactics that are designed to hackily cobble the whole thing together, and no COHESIVE design. Marauder has the cohesive design, and Order lacked that in a MDPS class (and in the current patch, still does, but that's another discussion). The entire realm suffers because you want a pet. That to me is far more valuable than any concerns about letting a NPC play the game for you.

It's been explained enough times in this thread. The problem is putting a pet on a melee class. It was a stupid idea from the beginning, and if White Lions had been a Marauder mirror and I had gutted the Marauder implementation to create the pet-based WL implementation, you would have been calling me an utter moron. And you'd have been right.

Best post. 100% agree with you. Keep up the great work!

[Jildaz]

Just get rid of the pet, and give us Dual wield