[RP] Grimnir's Fury

[Athergic]

Seems like it would be to strong with morale groups, pin down x members, then bomb them to oblivion with no escape for almost 2 seconds. The chain CC alone that could be accomplished, I can feel the rage rise up inside me just thinking about dealing with it .

as well, the current ability isn't broken, doesn't seem under performing if it does what it says it does.

Would seem more appropriate as a morale 4 with how powerful it would be.

[footpatrol2]

If your thinking on screwing around with the range component of grimnir's fury I'd be careful. 75 ft or 100ft range might be too powerful. I wouldn't exceed 60ft and I'd start with 40ft. Then playtest for awhile, then go 50 ft, playtest for awhile then try 60 ft. Reduce as needed. Grimnir's fury is arguably stronger then alter fate m4. 75ft + seems too powerful.

[Glorian]

Actually the Bitterstone Thunderers use it regularly if we are getting whiped to use the self Rez Rune on 3 or 4 runis on command at the same time. Then Grimnirs Fury, and then half of the warband stands again.
BUT more than once our warband or another Order warbands caster backline has been wrecked by a zealot with that no immunity chain knockbacks.
Or knocking a warband away from a postern thus one zealot stopping a whole warband from getting into a Keep.
So I would kill from a warband Runi point of view to have the ability to do something in the first line to an enemy warband.
Be it a chain knockback, or the here weaker version of a chain root.
Rootet casters can still cast and healers still heal.

What does using grimnirs in this fashion save you besides releasing and regrouping? I can't see any enemy sitting around for 10 minutes waiting out self rez timer for fear of this play happening.
If you do this res mid battle and have it turn the tide of a wipe I'd love to see video of it in action. If this ability is able to change the tide of a battle like that I'd say it doesn't need changing at all if it is indeed that powerful.
I will agree WoI area denial on choke points in infuriating. This quasi-morale root might be a little over the top however.

No. You cant use the current self Rez and Grimnirs Fury to turn the tide in a Battle. Atm it is used to raise the warband after the enemy has moved away or only a small force is still there.
So current Grimnirs Fury dont change who wins in RvR.

[live4treasure]

It seems like a good ability and would certainly make RP see some more play.

I'd like to make an argument for the root inflicted by the ability being unbreakable by damage. I think that indeed, 30ft is a small enough area of effect that should you make the root breakable by damage, it would make the ability useless, because then the actual root would have no tactical use in a battle.

One question I have is, does bypassing immunity to root mean that a melee DPS's charge would not allow him to get to the RP? I imagine the answer is yes, but I would like to focus some of the discussion on this specific point, as I think it would be a huge impact on the balance of this proposed ability.

[AxelF]

Honestly, the mastery trees for Zealot and RP are such a mess that I think it would be better to wait for cc (especially as it's been teased that it's now not too far away...) and sort out what tree each ability/tactic ought to be in before changing the effect of them.

I know the reasoning behind where abilities are now is some sought of ST/AoE/dps separation, but it's so borked with ST absorb in the AoE tree, heal debuff in the ST heal tree and lifetaps being spread among the different trees.

Some sensible reorganisation will unlock some much better potential builds for both heal and dps RPs and Zealots than this will - the ability to take both their ST and AoE damage abilities along with the healbuff would be an absolute game changer in terms of viability for dps builds - ridiculously those three abilities are currently high (9 or 11 points) in each of the three trees...

Grimnirs Fury would also probably see more use if it were top of a heal focused tree, though I'd agree the range could use a slight buff - maybe 50 feet?

Edit

Post cc I can see something like the new ability you describe being a great 15 point ability at the top of the dps tree in place of an M4 maybe, putting it out of reach of heal build RPs, as a root is definitely more potent than a knock back. I'd envisage WoI being probably where it is currently points wise is the Zealot dps tree.

[dansari]

I forgot about those. You only see bw/sorc's when they're trying to escape though. not to keep enemies from fleeing.

I don't see a need to actually replace the ability at all- instead just make the current ability more desirable. The OP just says the mastery has always been viable- (so why change it?-) but the ability sucks. no explanation as to why it sucks, why it needs to be replaced or why he is proposing it- other than "to break the monotony." the proposal doesn't follow the standard format.

It's entirely random.

footpatrol2's suggestions seem far more reasonable as they are actually trying to improve the ability and not just create a random ability "just because."

". If a proposal does not meet the general guidelines of presenting an issue, explanation of said issue, and solution to said issue,"

I use my root to stop people from running so my wb can catch them all the time on my BW.

I said Grungni has always been viable because the standard heal build looks something like this: RoR.builders - Runepriest. You can get the stagger with Anni gear and giving up Runic Blasting, and the two other tactics in the tree are viable with certain builds/specs. Grimnir is a mess. Since Extended Battle doesn't work for Rune of Battle, dots break detaunt, and Grimnir's Fury being a 5s cast, 3min cd that no one can viably use for the reasons Glorian posted, the only real viable things to take are RoB (post-cd reduction from 1min to 30s) and Ancestor's Echo.

I didn't really go into the reasons why it sucks because if you have attempted to use the ability at all you realize that, for 13 pts invested in a tree, it's very, very impractical (again, I implore you to look at what Glorian is saying about the ability -- someone who has run in warbands where the only healers are RPs, so they've tried practically every single build).

You could certainly propose ways for the ability to perform the same function, but that's not what my proposal is about. But honestly this is an ability left over from live that theorycrafters love to think about, with no real world, practical application. Just because it's the only ability that aoe rezzes (outside of busted m4s), doesn't mean it's worthwhile in the game's current iteration.

[dansari]

Spoiler:

Honestly, the mastery trees for Zealot and RP are such a mess that I think it would be better to wait for cc (especially as it's been teased that it's now not too far away...) and sort out what tree each ability/tactic ought to be in before changing the effect of them.

I know the reasoning behind where abilities are now is some sought of ST/AoE/dps separation, but it's so borked with ST absorb in the AoE tree, heal debuff in the ST heal tree and lifetaps being spread among the different trees.

Some sensible reorganisation will unlock some much better potential builds for both heal and dps RPs and Zealots than this will - the ability to take both their ST and AoE damage abilities along with the healbuff would be an absolute game changer in terms of viability for dps builds - ridiculously those three abilities are currently high (9 or 11 points) in each of the three trees...

Grimnirs Fury would also probably see more use if it were top of a heal focused tree, though I'd agree the range could use a slight buff - maybe 50 feet?

Edit

Post cc I can see something like the new ability you describe being a great 15 point ability at the top of the dps tree in place of an M4 maybe, putting it out of reach of heal build RPs, as a root is definitely more potent than a knock back. I'd envisage WoI being probably where it is currently points wise is the Zealot dps tree.

The trees for both have intermixing of heal/dps/misc support, so there's not necessarily a "heal" tree but you get more healing out of Grungni than Grimnir. Furthermore, the RP and Zealot healing builds are nearly exactly the same when you consider the abilities/tactics that are cookie cutter. If you want Winds as Zealot you pick it up from the "misc support" tree and drop stagger from the "heal" tree; the same if you wanted this as RP.

[dansari]

Spoiler:

It seems like a good ability and would certainly make RP see some more play.

I'd like to make an argument for the root inflicted by the ability being unbreakable by damage. I think that indeed, 30ft is a small enough area of effect that should you make the root breakable by damage, it would make the ability useless, because then the actual root would have no tactical use in a battle.

One question I have is, does bypassing immunity to root mean that a melee DPS's charge would not allow him to get to the RP? I imagine the answer is yes, but I would like to focus some of the discussion on this specific point, as I think it would be a huge impact on the balance of this proposed ability.

That was my thinking honestly. If it doesn't react with immunity in some different way, it's not worth 13pts and we'd just have another useless 13pt at the top of a tree. It's all completely hypothetical -- so if it bypasses immunities/doesn't break on damage, what sort of counterplay should it have? If it bypasses immunities but does break on damage it's practically unusable. If it doesn't break on damage but doesn't bypass immunities, should it follow the same rules as Winds, or not? Should it be countered by root breakers or ability immunities from mdps? Should it use avoidance checks? 30ft is incredibly short and I think the ability should be as strong as Winds is, which people seem to be downplaying a lot in this thread.

[AxelF]

Yes, I play both Zealot and RP and have a very similar mastery point build for both, my point though is that this is an attempt to make dps RP 'viable' when it won't make playing one any less painful.

DPS RP (and zealot) already is very viable in WB scale but fills a very particular niche role which is spreading AoE healdebuff (dps zealot can also provide AoE armour and corp debuff but that involves getting uncomfortably close to the enemy...)

Due to the state of the RP/zealot mastery trees though you can't pick up heal debuff and then both your decent ST attack and the AoE attack. This makes dps spec extremely frustrating to play unless you run solely in an organised WB setting that knows what you can bring and utilises you properly, and never log on and solo roam or pug, as if you're AoE heal debuff specced thats all you can do, and if you're caught on your own you're free renown points. Similarly, if you're specced for ST and heal debuff build you're dangerous in roaming/small group situations but useless in WB scale.

The 'fix' to make dps RP/zealot 'viable' (or more common/fun to play) is to put the key three skills in one tree, or max two. This would allow you to be useful in WBs without making any solo/small scale activity too painful to deal with. Changing Grimnirs Fury in this way might add another niche trick to dps RP's arsenal in an organised WB setting, but imo that's not what's stopping people playing dps RP/zealots. It would've better to wait for cc and sort out the mastery trees properly rather than try and band aid fix it now. As I said I think this proposed skill would be useful at the top of a 'dps tree', but it probably shouldn't replace GF which would be useful in its current position in either the 'heal' or the 'utility' trees.

[dansari]

Ah I see your point now. Sure, absolutely. This is not a fix for DPS RP and I didn't mean for it to come across as such. I just meant that it would open up the viability of DPS RP more, so you have multiple functions in wb just like DPS zealots have multiple functions, something like this: rr 60