[Review] [Mara] Gift of monstrosity

[szejoza]

Or just give the proc ICD of 10s as most procs already have it. It gives a way to counter it while not nerfing it to the ground.
Though it might seem as a bandaid to some and not a real solution

[diedrake]

Not what i was getting at tesq,

If peeps what to shatter enchant or w/e it wouldnt be the proc it would be the arm itself. Making it so that the mara has to recast his mace arm from basic arm. And if that were to come into effect then peeps would want to shatter say auras. I was just using auras as an exmple.

But hey, do what u guys want to if something seems op then change it lmao.

[Saftdryck]

Or just give the proc ICD of 10s as most procs already have it. It gives a way to counter it while not nerfing it to the ground.
Though it might seem as a bandaid to some and not a real solution

This will only bandaid aoe maras, and still screw up ST maras drastically. So no

[peterthepan3]

At this point I, too, would welcome any conclusive proof of GoM overperforming. On paper it seems very powerful, but do we have examples that prove it actually necessitates a radical shift from 100% to 10%? Have potential repercussions of such a shift been sufficiently considered?

Keep discussing!

[Scrilian]

Pardon me, but aren't those kinda self-evident?
Being able easily to counter absolutely all of enemy WS, like negate total of couple of thousands of stats combined even in something as small as 6men(and ridiculous if talking warband levels), on top of being able to selfheal rather well - all this without any kind of thought put in, easily done with a click of a button and not even required to spec into. Heck, not even a tactic slot.
If anything Guardian WL treatment has taught us is that something this OP and baseline has to get nerfed. Probably now is a good time for it.

[Saftdryck]

Pardon me, but aren't those kinda self-evident?
Being able easily to counter absolutely all of enemy WS, like negate total of couple of thousands of stats combined even in something as small as 6men(and ridiculous if talking warband levels), on top of being able to selfheal rather well - all this without any kind of thought put in, easily done with a click of a button and not even required to spec into. Heck, not even a tactic slot.
If anything Guardian WL treatment has taught us is that something this OP and baseline has to get nerfed. Probably now is a good time for it.

With a click? Really?

Proc says it's 25% chance, but in reality it's somewhere 6-7% to proc it. You have to hit someone or spam aoe to get the proc, which it seems can be shattered (it shouldn't be). This also requires to be fast of switching into it, and have someone in range to hit, who can parry or block your attacks on top it has only 6-7% chance to proc. To be able to get most of the proc, you ahev to have high armor. Now there is Armor debuffs in the game which will decrease it wven farther or WHs or caster who ignore armor. You want to survive with GoM proc while kiting out? you better have good tank and heals to support you.

[Athergic]

If you don't hit anything, it doesn't proc at all. So it can be completely useless while doing almost no damage at the same time. So if you are kited, or knocked, or punted or blocked and blocked and blocked. Doesn't seem op to me.

[Scrilian]

To sum up everything after some discord "bantz", I'd love to clarify my position - sheer value of 100% anti-pen and the ease of maintaining the proc makes order rather mediocre physical dps classes, most notably Slayer and SW, who aren't really considered a viable pick compared to BW, even less desirable in wb setups.
They can be played, yes, but not build a wb around them and not solely because of marauder mostro proc, but it plays its part for sure.

Again, from the wb point of view - there is no counterplay to it. Just pop and forget, reduce the incoming physical damage by at least two-thirds, while continue dishing out aoe pressure, drains and other useful stuff. And when wbs engage in a direct fight, the uptime is pretty much 100%, so I don't see how the argument of "i can't maintain it in a 6v6 all the time" stands at all. Or that it makes you do less damage, therefore should remain broken.

At the 100% value the power level of this stuff is close to that of the Shroud of Magnus/Elixir of the Cauldron. It just makes sense, at least to sane people, to limit it to 10-20% due to it's uptime and provide 1-2% scaling with mastery.
There is no dumbing down here, its existence in its current form is already a testament to stupidity that went far beyond unchecked, at any scale, large or small.

And inb4, please, spare me your "haha you seem bias therefore must be wrong" fallacies. While it's true that my heart and soul would always belong to the realm of order, it does not affect my judgment, views of class balance and overall thoughts and ideas about this game.
Besides, I don't see anything wrong with disagreeing with destro players. I'd say argumentation on the order forum side is often lacking in vigor or brains or both to the point of feeling like I'm alone and mostly playing devils advocate here.

I've played marauder for quite some time, in fact it was my first character on live release and I suffered through much of mara being complete gimp. But I having played around with it on live and here, I just can't believe you can say Monstro proc is balanced with a straight face, just can't.

Spoiler:

Healing component is whatever, I wound't take it away from people who enjoy their mara toons for reagent farming.
But then again, it probably should be halved and other half tied to a tactic, like Hulking Brute, that would increase the healing, up to it's current value. Would be pretty balanced if takes up a tactic slot, or just scaled with mastery.

[theoddone]

To sum up everything after some discord "bantz", I'd love to clarify my position - sheer value of 100% anti-pen and the ease of maintaining the proc makes order rather mediocre physical dps classes, most notably Slayer and SW, even less desirable in wb setups.

Again, from the wb point of view - there is no counterplay to it. Just pop and forget, reduce the incoming physical damage by at least two-thirds, while continue dishing out aoe pressure, drains and other useful stuff. And when wbs engage in a direct fight, the uptime is pretty much 100%, so I don't see how the argument of "i can't maintain it in a 6v6 all the time" stands at all. Or that it makes you do less damage, therefore should remain broken.

At the 100% value the power level of this stuff is close to that of the Shroud of Magnus/Elixir of the Cauldron. It just makes sense, at least to sane people, to limit it to 10-20% due to it's uptime and provide 1-2% scaling with mastery.
There is no dumbing down here, its existence in its current form is already a testament to stupidity that went far beyond unchecked, at any scale, large or small.

And inb4, please, spare me your "haha you seem bias therefore must be wrong" fallacies. While it's true that my heart and soul would always belong to the realm of order, it does not affect my judgment, views of class balance and overall thoughts and ideas about this game.
Besides, I don't see anything wrong with disagreeing with destro players. In fact, I'd say argumentation on the order forum side is often lacking in vigor or brains or both to the point of feeling like I'm alone and mostly playing devils advocate here.

I've played marauder for quite some time, in fact it was my first character on live release and I suffered through much of mara being complete gimp. But I having played around with it on live and here, I just can't believe you can say Monstro proc is balanced with a straight face, just can't.

Spoiler:

Healing component is whatever, I wound't take it away from people who enjoy their mara toons for reagent farming.
But then again, it probably should be halved and other half tied to a tactic, like Hulking Brute, that would increase the healing, up to it's current value. Would be pretty balanced if takes up a tactic slot, or just scaled with mastery.

1. Would the nerf of GoM actually change order setups? I am actually curious about this, becuase I highly doubt it.

2. Luckily for us the game is not balanced based on WB scale. Other parts have to be considered as well. If you took the time to read the thread you would notice that there are actually tons of counters against GoM. Kiting, CC, magic dmg, armour ignore abilities, armour debuffs. Somehow though, anything that is not part of WB meta does not count for you people.

3. People seem to have misunderstood the whole class mechanic of marauder. Becuase abilities are linked to stances there are trade-offs between swaping stances. You lose certain abilities by changing stances unlike other classes. Therefore there should be benefits and downsides to a stance. Actually using the class mechanic should be rewarded, not punished. The whole class mechanic becomes completely useless and restricting if there are no benefits to changing stances. It will simply be bad design if monstro stance is only supposed to be used in RvR and AoE settings. All the stances should bring something to every type of situation. That is why the loss of dmg and utility when going monstro actually matters. If the class mechanic is going to be linked to mastery then SW will have to be changed as well.

4. It is funny you mention bias. Becuase you are the most order biased person on this whole forum. Your posting history says a lot more than what your self-analysis does I am certain without a doubt that if I made a balanced proposal about for example Coordinated Strike on the WL you would post in that thread:)

[Scrilian]

Spoiler:

1. Would the nerf of GoM actually change order setups? I am actually curious about this, becuase I highly doubt it.

2. Luckily for us the game is not balanced based on WB scale. Other parts have to be considered as well. If you took the time to read the thread you would notice that there are actually tons of counters against GoM. Kiting, CC, magic dmg, armour ignore abilities, armour debuffs. Somehow though, anything that is not part of WB meta does not count for you people.

3. People seem to have misunderstood the whole class mechanic of marauder. Becuase abilities are linked to stances there are trade-offs between swaping stances. You lose certain abilities by changing stances unlike other classes. Therefore there should be benefits and downsides to a stance. Actually using the class mechanic should be rewarded, not punished. The whole class mechanic becomes completely useless and restricting if there are no benefits to changing stances. It will simply be bad design if monstro stance is only supposed to be used in RvR and AoE settings. All the stances should bring something to every type of situation. That is why the loss of dmg and utility when going monstro actually matters. If the class mechanic is going to be linked to mastery then SW will have to be changed as well.

4. It is funny you mention bias. Becuase you are the most order biased person on this whole forum. Your posting history says a lot more than what your self-analysis does I am certain without a doubt that if I made a balanced proposal about for example Coordinated Strike on the WL you would post in that thread:)

Probably not by much, BW would remain dominant because of number of other factors.
During a brief few months of SW/SH bombing meta we had here, marauder damage reduction+healing from monstro proc was noticeable and was a well seen to pretty much everyone who encountered a half SH-half marauder warband setup. Still generally the more marauders you add, the undoubtedly worse Slayers and SWs perform.
This is a step in the right direction, might push for a bit more relaxed order wb setups, that could be enjoyed by more people, who want to be "competitive" and not be at a constant disadvantage.

Most of this game issues stem from being designed around WB scale yet not quite balanced around it. Your so called counters work only in narrow situations of the smallscale minigames you play and are irrelevant in the real fights of RvR.
And even there the way to take down decent and guarded marauder who popped monstro is a nearly impossible task, given that the window of actually taking damage - when armor debuff+demolishing strike are applied, with guard punted, is pretty small and can be played around, unless outplayed/outgeared heavily.

Let's not kid ourselves about the whole misunderstanding of how stances and classes work. We aren't 16yo kids here and it doesn't take a degree in rocket science to understand that a baseline, complete and almost passive negation, on a scale of unlike anything other in the game, of an important to many classes stat given to the marauder monstro proc is far beyond normal in a bad way.
Reduced to 20% anti-armor penetration seems rewarding enough, given that you maxed out the Monstro tree that is.
This puts it in line with pretty much every other anti-penetration high uptime buff or stance in the game, bar probably melee SW/SH stances, who need those amounts of stats to actually work.
Thankfully monstro complete bs negation of WS is none of those things, can and should be tuned.

Sadly, its easy to see that you are just here to defend the broken state of monstro proc and nothing else, with arguments like I can still die to BWs, that people are just too stupid to understand the complexity of marauder and should resort to wasting tons of effort and resources to even get a chance at taking down a guarded lol-monstro-procced marauder in some kind of largely irrelevant minigame.
As far as the real deal, monstro proc matters, largely contributing to order aoe physical dps being irrelevant in the grand scale of things, but not solely the cause of it.
For the rest of pros of this broken proc or how it neatly interacts with things like AP/Moral drains, I suggest re-reading Tesq, who writes it plainly and clearly.

Spoiler:

I don't mind coming of as bias to the likes of you. Heck, this might be indicating to me that I'm doing the right thing.
But you talking of biases tho? Might be really nervous about the state of your precious tools, that you happily and blissfully abuse to make those hilarious 1vX videos. Shame for them to go away, isn't it?

Tone down the harassment. Balance forums aren't a playground for bickering - Dan