Recent Topics

Ads

[Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic

Proposals which did not pass the two week review, were rejected internally, or were not able to be implemented.

Moderators: Balance Forum Mod, Developer, Game Master, Management, Communications, Moderator, Web Developer

User avatar
daniilpb
Posts: 591

[Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic

Post#1 » Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:37 am

Identify the issue
Underperformance of the Scout stance in general which is caused by third-rate skills and tactics related to this tree/stance.
Including Guerrilla Training Tactic which is bad without any good points.

Explain why it's an issue
Scout stance has huge AP issues but this tactic does not help it. It barely worth a tactic slot because its overall impact is minimal.
At the same time the stance/tree suffers from lack of damage/burst potential. So, we have an AP starvation and lack of damage all rolled into one. The first problem can be left alone because a) Can be fixed with a group synergy b) May appear as a justified downside c) Opens possible counterplays.
But the problem of the damage can't be fixed with a group because no one would take a dps which can't deal decent damage by itself without very strict conditions (it requires stationarity, long cast times, open space to prevent LOS etc and it still doesn’t provide any good chances for Scout to deal appropriate damage. Anyway all of these requirements/conditions are highly unwelcome in any group setup). Personally, I don't think any specs which are based on Scout can compete with any other SWs builds or other classes' dps potentials with or without a group.
Thus, I believe that the main problem of the Scout stance is its low output of effective damage (damage that can go through heal/guard mitigation in competitive environment) and I think the process of fixing it should start with a rework of Guerrilla Training Tactic.

Propose a viable solution to the problem:
Redesign of Guerrilla Training Tactic:
Direct damage Scout attacks will do 50% (numbers can be tweaked) extra critical damage.
It will also grant a 25% critical chance increase to these abilities: Flame Arrow and Rapid Fire.

Just to clarify some points.
Extra critical damage will not be over performing with the Festering Arrow because the overall damage still will be significantly lower than it was with the Unshakable Focus Moral therefore it should be acceptable.
Same goes for the Eagle Eye skill (even with the No Quarter Tactic), the AP cost of the skill is still unacceptably high. There are enough action points only for 4-6 attacks with this skill without possible dodges and other skills in certain rotation. Any build based on Eagle Eye is very AP starving which already limits any possible use of it too much (currently it can be considered as completely unviable). Also almost every skill which will be affected by this change has a cast time which always can be interrupted/countered with LOS therefore it won't be possible to perform huge damage spikes. There always will be some time for enemy to react especially since flight time on the server is more than noticeable. In the end, Scout stance/build does not have high crit chances without gimping any of its sides (crit with r.p. - gimping your defenses, Wrist Slash tactic for double initiative debuff - well, you will have to enter melee range without special gear so it will result in a quick death (Assault stance requires very defensive gear which significantly lowers your damage in any other stance. Basically, you just can't mix these two playstyles with good outcome).

Here is a compilation of possible future builds and brief analysis to prove some points.
40/50 build:
Spoiler:
Image
You would have a crit modificator, Festering Arrow combo, HD and tactic for your range dots. At first sight, it looks great but look at the tactics. You will have to spend 3! tactic slots to make Scout abilities worth using. It means that you will have only one spare tactic slot for any of stats tactics, crit one, AP tactic or Pierce Defenses. You won't be able to get everything, you will have to give up on some crit or quite good amount of ballistics/ballistics + weapon skills or AP. So, you will end up with: a simple one-trick Festering Arrow which again will have less damage than it had with UF and without range knockdown + initiative debuff and finishers. It's similar to BW using only Fireballs which can be disrupted/blocked. You can guess how effective it can be. Of course, you can run Skirmish between FAs but again your build will be gimped because you had slotted 2 tactics which working only for Scout and 1 universal tactic, the damage loss will be noticeable for sure since the Skirmish itself is not a topdog build and requires huge boost with stats, crit and Pierce Defenses tactic to get through dodges which happen quite often.

There are 40/70 builds.
Spoiler:
Image
The worst build I can imagine to be honest. You will have to spend 3 tactics (same situation as above) and your effective range will be only ~71ft. You will get enormous AP starvation (w/o AP tactic), loss of 120-120+160 of your offensive stats and quite good amount of dodges if you won't slot Pierce Defenses. And of course no range knockdown with initiative debuff.
Spoiler:
Image
It's probably the best build you would be able to make because it has free space for 2 core tactics (you can choose what you need the most), good effective range and at least one utility skill - HD. And there are some downsides of course. Your crit modificator will improve only the finisher (Fell The Weak) and simple Festering Arrow. To sum up: no range KD with initiative debuff, no hard hitting Festering Arrow and no supportive damage from Glass Arrow. You will always have to give up on some good things.
Spoiler:
Image
Maybe I was mistaken above and this one should be called "never use this build". You will benefit from new Guerilla Training Tactic as much as you can but... 4! tactic slots must be spent to make it work. It means: minus 160-280 ballistics, enormous AP starvation, everything can be dodged, crit only from items and renown investment. At least you would have good affective range, something like 105ft. But again no rKD+initiative debuff and no Fell The Weak. It's a full-time Scout Stance because, if you enter the Skirmish, I bet you will need to kite on the wheelchair with those stats you would have in the end.
Spoiler:
Image
And another full-time Scout. But without heal debuff. The concept is that you will stay at range and try to nuke someone. 3 tactics are mandatory so there are the same issues as I described above. I can't tell how far you could get with that... I think you will get nowhere w/o HD.
Spoiler:
Image
It's a pure hybrid. Run around in Skirmish, use rKD and simple Festring Arrow. How effective this can be? Your crits with Festering Arrow will deal slightly more damage than they do on Live server at the moment (e.g. 500 non-crit damage + 250 damage from crit + 125 damage from tactic = 875 of pure damage in total OR 500 non-crit + 500 crit with tactic = 1000 in total (I'm just not sure how tactic works exactly) AGAINST 500 non-crit + 250 from crit = 750 in total (live). The difference varies from 125 to 250 in that imaginary situation). So, it's good since it encourages stance-dancing but the only skills with modificated crit damage you will probably use from Scout are the Festering Arrow and the Acid Arrow.
Spoiler:
Image
And the last one if you would really like to try Eagle Eye. So, here is a quick math: we have 250 AP in total, the Eagle Eye with tactic costs us 53, usual rotation should always start with two dots (BA and SS) = 55 ap, after that we can try to start using Eagle Eye with 195 AP left so it will result in 3.7 casts. Basically, you can cast from 3.7 to 4.7 Eagle Eyes. But if you would use the Acid Arrow and Fell The Weak then you would cast only 2 Eagle Eyes and have some AP left for the Takedown snare. Does it look like a "very dangerous" rotation? I am sure It doesn't. Full rotation would take you like 7 seconds not counting GCDs (with them it would probably be 9-10 seconds and even more). This is more than enough time to react since also there won't be any huge damage spikes because of cast times, the damage will flow slowly without any kind of burst. Flight times also should be considered since SW uses projectiles aka arrows and they need some time before they will reach a target, sometimes it can be really noticeable: every skill can have a ~1 second delay. Then add possible dodges and look at how many skills you can really land to make a noticeable damage. The real picture may frustrate you.

All of these builds require 70rr and you can judge how good they look for yourself but I can't find anything over-performing here.
Last edited by daniilpb on Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:22 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Image
<Fusion>
Riphael - Black Guard.
Meridin - Sorcerer.
<FusionII>
Ripliel - Shadow Warrior.
Arfi - Swordmaster.
Very Serious Warhammer Online Montage

Ads
User avatar
peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: [Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic [Close Date April 22]

Post#2 » Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:40 pm

Open for discussion. Will be locked in TWO WEEKS from now (22nd April).

With Assault and Skirmish both viable (not to suggest that Scout isn't in some guise), what are your thoughts on daniilpb's Scout suggestions? Please keep constructive feedback pertinent to the above proposal.
Image

User avatar
Acidic
Posts: 1645
Contact:

Re: [Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic [Close Date April 22]

Post#3 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:08 am

When I read this proposal I can not help to doubt the justifications here.
The scout spec is specialized and for long range and even in your description you say (the way I read the wall) that it works but under special circumstances.
The othe point I see that the inclusion of justification on M2 that was removed due to over performance seems off.
That a spec is long range low risk is the meaning of high AP costs and killing ppl at long range is low risk so no reason to have high burst.
This suggestion give me the usual SW feel of I want to be equivalent of bed of breed as range melle and something in between

This comment hasn't really offered anything substantial to the discussion, and is based more on individual perception of how spec ought to be viewed: Scout is a long-range stationary nuke spec, and should be treated as such. The last sentence in your paragraph is particularly irrelevant to the discussion, so please keep it pertinent to OT. - ptp3

User avatar
daniilpb
Posts: 591

Re: [Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic [Close Date April 22]

Post#4 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:39 am

Acidic wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:08 am
When I read this proposal I can not help to doubt the justifications here.
The scout spec is specialized and for long range and even in your description you say (the way I read the wall) that it works but under special circumstances.
The othe point I see that the inclusion of justification on M2 that was removed due to over performance seems off.
That a spec is long range low risk is the meaning of high AP costs and killing ppl at long range is low risk so no reason to have high burst.
This suggestion give me the usual SW feel of I want to be equivalent of bed of breed as range melle and something in between
Everything can work under special circumstances even range marauder or aoe WH/WE but it doesn’t make them viable and worth playing. That’s the thing.
I can feel your flashbacks about UF but I mentioned this moral only once: the tactic would buff overall damage of certain skills by ~30% on crit but with UF we had 100% increase of ALL damage. I never justified UF, the point is that it won’t be possible to archive similar numbers.
The part about long range is the funniest. Then you can claim that BW/Sorc and especially Magus/Engi should not be allowed to do burst damage which is the main part of their single target builds. Long range counter-argument is clearly melee biased. Scout stance is stationary which makes it much easier for melee to get to SW else it won’t deal any damage because of constant kiting/escaping. Also most of melee classes have no problems with chasing range key targets, that’s why double melee setups are always better than 3-2-1 or any other setup with range dps (e.g. marauder has more than enough tools to catch every range class in the game).
Image
<Fusion>
Riphael - Black Guard.
Meridin - Sorcerer.
<FusionII>
Ripliel - Shadow Warrior.
Arfi - Swordmaster.
Very Serious Warhammer Online Montage

User avatar
Acidic
Posts: 1645
Contact:

Re: [Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic [Close Date April 22]

Post#5 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:07 am

Unfortunately i do not see anything here actually justifying the change .
Range classes you talk about don’t have the tools SW has.

The scout spec to me is a specialized role which has uses and still has the ability to stance switch and other utility functions etc

Again, 'I don't see anything justifying' isn't a valid method of engaging in balance discussions. Why do you feel that way? Expand on it. The topic isn't asking for individual perceptions of what spec X ought to do; the discussion is centered along what the OP thinks the spec ought to be able to do, and it is your prerogative to then counter this. - ptp3

ToXoS
Posts: 666

Re: [Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic [Close Date April 22]

Post#6 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:28 am

I don't think there is a "lack of damage" issue from Scout stance abilities.
2 days ago on a siege, I was playing my SH and a rank 40 SW bursted me down with 2 eagle eyes. One hitted me for 1300 non crit, the other crited me for 1900+ damage. And when I see how fast this burst come, I'm pretty sure the player was using the tactic No Quarter (or maybe focused mind morale, or maybe both!).

The point to this exemple is that Scout builds do not lack damage on the right targets, they just lack mobility. These stationary builds can shine in the right situation, for example a siege. Every SW just have to ask him/herself if they prefer a more hard-hitting stationary style or a more mobile one (or even a melee one!).
As for AP starvation, well it's a group-based game after all, and there are a lot of AP sources coming from a lot of classes.

dansari
Suspended
Posts: 2524

Re: [Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic [Close Date April 22]

Post#7 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:19 pm

ToXoS wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:28 am
I don't think there is a "lack of damage" issue from Scout stance abilities.
2 days ago on a siege, I was playing my SH and a rank 40 SW bursted me down with 2 eagle eyes. One hitted me for 1300 non crit, the other crited me for 1900+ damage. And when I see how fast this burst come, I'm pretty sure the player was using the tactic No Quarter (or maybe focused mind morale, or maybe both!).

The point to this exemple is that Scout builds do not lack damage on the right targets, they just lack mobility. These stationary builds can shine in the right situation, for example a siege. Every SW just have to ask him/herself if they prefer a more hard-hitting stationary style or a more mobile one (or even a melee one!).
As for AP starvation, well it's a group-based game after all, and there are a lot of AP sources coming from a lot of classes.
I don't doubt your story, but anecdotal evidence taken with no screenshots/timestamps or buff/debuff context can be hard to judge and paint a clear picture of the reality of a situation. Regardless, the topic is focused on an underperforming tactic, Guerilla Training.
<Salt Factory>

User avatar
Reesh
Posts: 644

Re: [Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic [Close Date April 22]

Post#8 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:42 pm

I've played quite extensively with scout specs and yes, they do lack a lot. They are not viable almost in any way. What most do are picking FTW or fester, just because they're useful sometimes, for a quick swap into scout mode.
If the scout SW wants to deal dmg, he's seriously almost more stationary then Engis/magii. Lots of counterplays vs that are opened, lots, Danii explained it extensively.

I think that this change might be a small step into making this tree somewhat viable. It won't brake the game for sure.
Image

Ads
User avatar
Toldavf
Posts: 1586

Re: [Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic [Close Date April 22]

Post#9 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:02 am

Scout abilities already have exceptionally high tool tips Festering arrow already hits hard enough racking up 3k crits with enchanted arrows with this buff you could happily hit the damage cap of 4k.

Fell the weak is one of the hardest hitting instant casts in game and i don't see given that fact why you would seek to make it crit any harder.

You can go to far with individual hits being to large and certainly putting out 4k every time fester crits is certainly to much reliable high burst to come out of nowhere, especialy if you are going to co-ordinate cc and have any sort of assist.

That's not even to mention that having such big stupid damage that comes with no warning is bloody murder for pugs nobody wants to be 3 shotted with no warning it's not a fun mechanic in any game.
Khorlar, Thorvold, Sjohgar, Anareth, Toldavf, Hartwin, Gotrin and others -_-

Image

dansari
Suspended
Posts: 2524

Re: [Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic [Close Date April 22]

Post#10 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:01 am

Toldavf wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:02 am
That's not even to mention that having such big stupid damage that comes with no warning is bloody murder for pugs nobody wants to be 3 shotted with no warning it's not a fun mechanic in any game.
That was going to be my main argument. You can prep for a normal sorc/BW rotation. You cannot prep for a 3k fester drop, and based on my understanding, you could easily see 3k crits if you get a +50% crit damage tactic (not sure about 4k, but feel free to supply screenshots that show otherwise).

Edit: Toldavf provided me with a ss of a 3k fester on him. I'm wholeheartedly against 4k festers, which it appears we would invariably see with a change like this.
<Salt Factory>

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest