WE Viability?

[Aceboltz]

Viable catfood, whether as breakfast, lunch or dinner.
Good for ganking lowbies and slaughtering scrubs.
Sucks versus any good enemy players who don't let a WE spam AW at their backsides.
Doesn't really have any role in largescale RvR due to suffering from lack of AoE and mechanic being wonky as any DoT can ruin your stealth.

But stabbing enemies is fun so, and "burst" (well not true burst like WL or WH with BaL, rather consistent flow of decent dmg hits) is okayish.
Many enemies do not run proper tank + guard groups so you can still kill many many people on a WE.

Lol, you have such an incredible bias against BaL (since you bring it up EVERY time you get a chance to do so) and somehow have engraved it in your head that "it's omg so bursty!! class defining!!". Sweetie, you need better tanks and a semi-dumb healer and you will never die to BaL. Now if you're solo and have no pots, sure you will probably die. Any competent 6 man will take EW over BaL.

He is 100% tight tho. WE is only good against solo scrubs that let them spam their only attack. WH is such a superior ganker and a viable melee in a 6 man. As you said the only way to counter a WH is to be 3 people including flash gordon tank and decend healer. Against a WE? Detaunt, kite, gg. They are mostly useful to kill afk people and they don't know the 1v3 that WLs perform daily with ease.
And bal is broken as fk: it's useless in 6v6 but totally godlike OP for ganking. Period.

[shaggyboomboom]

Viable catfood, whether as breakfast, lunch or dinner.
Good for ganking lowbies and slaughtering scrubs.
Sucks versus any good enemy players who don't let a WE spam AW at their backsides.
Doesn't really have any role in largescale RvR due to suffering from lack of AoE and mechanic being wonky as any DoT can ruin your stealth.

But stabbing enemies is fun so, and "burst" (well not true burst like WL or WH with BaL, rather consistent flow of decent dmg hits) is okayish.
Many enemies do not run proper tank + guard groups so you can still kill many many people on a WE.

Lol, you have such an incredible bias against BaL (since you bring it up EVERY time you get a chance to do so) and somehow have engraved it in your head that "it's omg so bursty!! class defining!!". Sweetie, you need better tanks and a semi-dumb healer and you will never die to BaL. Now if you're solo and have no pots, sure you will probably die. Any competent 6 man will take EW over BaL.

He is 100% tight tho. WE is only good against solo scrubs that let them spam their only attack. WH is such a superior ganker and a viable melee in a 6 man. As you said the only way to counter a WH is to be 3 people including flash gordon tank and decend healer. Against a WE? Detaunt, kite, gg. They are mostly useful to kill afk people and they don't know the 1v3 that WLs perform daily with ease.
And bal is broken as fk: it's useless in 6v6 but totally godlike OP for ganking. Period.

BAL is not useless for 6v6

[Miszczu5647]

The WLs became an automatic loss. Without RD you can't survive a knockdown with sufficient health to continue fightnie.
...
So if WL pounced, and he is not a "clicker" - you are dead

Simply not true. WL's are great mdps but 1vs1 WE can win (more than lose).
If you play solo you want to fight with others soloers. Most soloers on order side are: WL, WH and sometimes 2h dps tanks. What they have in common? All are mdps. Spec against mdps.

[sunnyray]

Your answer is purely declarative. The ability of pet to see you in stealth after agile escape is a bug. And has nothing to do with spec, skill or smth else.

[Miszczu5647]

Your answer is purely declaritive. The ability of pet to see you in stealth after agile escape is a bug. And has nothing to do with spec, skill or smth else.

Did I quote something about the pet?

[sunnyray]

Pet bug is the reason of WE loss. After knockdown if you get up with less than 30% agile escape is the way to stealth again and either retreat or engage again. Now it is simply not possible due to pet seeing you. WL can disengage any moment if you were not able to burst him down after opener (due to pet snare). And when your hp is lowered by pet engage again with pounce. He is in full control of situation. WE does not have an upper hand...I am not saying it should. But the inability to escape due to bug is just irritating.

[Mavella]

Lol, you have such an incredible bias against BaL (since you bring it up EVERY time you get a chance to do so) and somehow have engraved it in your head that "it's omg so bursty!! class defining!!". Sweetie, you need better tanks and a semi-dumb healer and you will never die to BaL. Now if you're solo and have no pots, sure you will probably die. Any competent 6 man will take EW over BaL.

A competent WH is covering that BAL with multiple other debuff before it goes on. It's not being cleansed immediately and is doing 2 ticks on every application at the very least if it even gets cleansed at all. If EW doesn't crit it's damage is OK at best. BAL has multiple chances to critical for 1200+ with 2k+ final ticks with sigil up or a strong armor debuff. That ability is no joke when you're on the receving end of it. Not to mention its not like the WH stops attacking you after application. Your ass is still getting tormented for 1200+ crits and auto attacked while you're burning. The sustained dps pressure is very real.

The 200 toughness debuff on EW is overkill on anything besides tanks at this state of the game. Most other classes have 200 toughness at an absolute maximum most considerably less. I ran EW on live and it is no doubt a strong ability but it's value is a little over blown on RoR at the moment. As gear progresses and more classes have 200+ toughness as a baseline and WH can stack more critical to get those big EW crits it will become much more valuable in my eyes. If a 6 man is blindly ignoring how much damage BAL is capable of delivering on a sustained basis at the moment I'd question their "competency".

Also, WE finishers are total dogshit comparative to EW/BAL so they will always be a big target for criticism. Unfortunately as WE you need to decide who you're looking to kill in the lakes. If you gear up to fight other mdps you won't be killing healers with braincells as you'll impact your ability to burst sometimes significantly depending on how you decide to spec. If you're specced to burst a lot of order classes will eat you alive with how strong they are at the moment. I think RD/CW were essentials for WE solo play prior to removal and they are one the classes impacted the hardest unfortunately.

On my WH I can spec BAL+heal debuff+sigil and use pots and parry to cover my defenses and kill pretty indescriminently. I might run into some strong dueling spec mdps/tanks that are built to drag out fights but you can ignore them or try your luck and bail if things don't go well because they likely aren't bursting you down. I might be on the receiving end of burst with such a glassy build but I don't feel it's nearly as insurmountable as I do on my WE. It's very easy to find yourself dead or 90% of the way there after the kd duration of a guardian WL or WH and that's after you got the jump on them.

Tough life.

[Miszczu5647]

Pet bug is the reason of WE loss. After knockdown if you get up with less than 30% agile escape is the way to stealth again and either retreat or engage again. Now it is simply not possible due to pet seeing you. WL can disengage any moment if you were not able to burst him down after opener (due to pet snare). And when your hp is lowered by pet engage again with pounce. He is in full control of situation. WE does not have an upper hand...I am not saying it should. But the inability to escape due to bug is just irritating.

We have different experiences. Slot sacrifices rewarded, use detaunt just before he gets up after your kd. Drink absorb pot after you get up from pet kd. Agile escape pet if it don't have Leonine Frenzy up (not all WL´s spec guardian after all).
Extra wounds helps also. And hot potion.
I don't say it's easy. But from my experience - I win more 1vs1 against WL then I lose.

P.s. Lions have scent (my personal explanation why they see me through stealth )

[Aurandilaz]

Viable catfood, whether as breakfast, lunch or dinner.
Good for ganking lowbies and slaughtering scrubs.
Sucks versus any good enemy players who don't let a WE spam AW at their backsides.
Doesn't really have any role in largescale RvR due to suffering from lack of AoE and mechanic being wonky as any DoT can ruin your stealth.

But stabbing enemies is fun so, and "burst" (well not true burst like WL or WH with BaL, rather consistent flow of decent dmg hits) is okayish.
Many enemies do not run proper tank + guard groups so you can still kill many many people on a WE.

Lol, you have such an incredible bias against BaL (since you bring it up EVERY time you get a chance to do so) and somehow have engraved it in your head that "it's omg so bursty!! class defining!!". Sweetie, you need better tanks and a semi-dumb healer and you will never die to BaL. Now if you're solo and have no pots, sure you will probably die. Any competent 6 man will take EW over BaL.

How do you arrive to the conclusion that I have something against BaL? It's a good finisher. It deals solid burst dmg. It's worth using your Accusations on because how good it is. My point was that WE simply does not have a similar good bursty finisher. You have triple nerfed Witchbrew (doesn't do Spirit, doesn't Crit, has now ICD) and ranged catching OYK utility and SS in case someone actually snares targets for you so you can keep hitting them with slightly more autoattacks. They all deal decent dmg, but none of them compares to BaL in true burstiness. Let WH keep BaL, but maybe one day give WE something similar? Then again, issue with BaL is how good it is over EW (best spec on live, sadly not here) and DG which is at least now as good as OYK, but both can be a bit of meh unless you specialize in catching kiters.

And sweetie, who said anything of me dying to BaL? Besides, competent enemies would just hide the dot anyway under other debuffs, so good luck with cleansing it all. As for 6manning, sure EW probably helps the 2nd dps deal more dmg, nothing new there.

[sunnyray]

Firstly, I mentioned that the fight begins with a pounce:) You are unstealthed...and have no chance to stealth due to bug...what to do?:D Secondly, you described a fight which you are starting...and already used your pots. Thirdly, where is the part when he snares you and charges away letting pet do nasty things. The part when he uses pots?:D Lastly you are high end WE. 20-30 rr points make a difference. It seems GM's play in some other fantasy world...you should make class problem poll's or smth:) there will be a feedback from many players...