Healing in RvR - renown

[Bozzax]

I’ve played war and ror with all archetypes. Outside of bugged renown gain in sc and lava leech war version was better in every single way.

This is not what I think was better it comes from plaing both versions for several years

I think you loose somthinh when you force players into one way or another (the right way) instead of making the game reward as many styles of play as possible.

[Bozzax]

Dup

[Sulorie]

As a healer in a warband you only get appropriate rewards, when your own group does the most dmg and kills. So basically one alpha group gets good rewards and all others are meatshields.
Joining a random warband as healer and have only trash dps in your party? Quit warband and play solo or accept pitiful rewards, despite healing all other 3 groups?
I don't think this is the right way to go.

[covenn]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

I hope you thought more than 5 seconds about the consequences of this kind of change.

What matters in a kill is not doing "the most damage", it is doing meaningful damage.

I hope you've put some kind of timer, something like a time window for measuring that damage, else be prepared to a bunch of evil side effect to that change.

1. you think that purely DB is better? because that is what it was at so a snipe would get the reward.
2. Im not done with the system either, this is the first step

I don't think DB was better by a long shot, but let me ask you this. What happens if you play a support class that does no damage like a healer or very little damage like a tank? The only way you are going to get any renown is by being in the optimal/alpha group make up. This simply doesn't happen with any thing remotely resembling enough frequency to be viable in practice. I understand the system is work in progress for you, but what are the consequences for those that do little to no damage until the rest of the system is live?

Look at this example, and believe me when I say it represent reality much of the time:

Lets say you are a healer and join a pug warband. One group is perfectly set up for doing the most damage possible and the other groups are a mix of low/no damage/uplevels. How is that healer supposed to get renown? Ok, the healer asks for the DPS to be split evenly and the groups to be fair and it falls on deaf ears. (this has happened literally every time I have asked personally) What recourse do I have to advance my character? I can leave the warband and go solo dps stuff, but now with this change, I cannot even snipe kills for advancement.

So what do you want all your healers to do? I suppose we can gear out twice (once full dps and once full heals) and just say forget warbands all together because it is more trouble than it is worth?

[covenn]

As a healer in a warband you only get appropriate rewards, when your own group does the most dmg and kills. So basically one alpha group gets good rewards and all others are meatshields.
Joining a random warband as healer and have only trash dps in your party? Quit warband and play solo or accept pitiful rewards, despite healing all other 3 groups?
I don't think this is the right way to go.

Exactly this. Somehow you manage to say what I have been trying to say in far far less text. lmao

[Aurandilaz]

You could always create your own PUG wb, and invite classes that are desired for more effective warband gameplay, and then kick those "trash" dps or the undesired classes (BG-WE/WH-WL) and run a better setup if you want better gainz.

Anyway, healing gains feel really bad now. Even if you do your best, it's just not enough to guarantee any RR or Exp, at least on a "REAL" dps class you know its up to you to get that RR flowing and knowing why it doesn't flow at times.
I'm not suggesting return to live where I could make 10k renown in sc from hotting outside of party or making another 10k from doing aoe heal under oil in 5 seconds, but the random max 20 ticks from occasional kills that your party might contribute to is just a bit demoralizing.

You have to accept that not everyone plays the game to run in optimal 6mans, and lot of us are just average players. And when the average players experience that their average gaming session with their average pug warband sessions barely feel rewarding due to currently abysmal healing RR gains, they lose motivation to play, which IMO is something no one desires as the game needs every player if it wants to properly prosper.

Just look at the top Renown Ranked players, its probably 70-80% of the rr80s being DPS classes with the few tanks and rare healer or two up there. Yes, we know that DPS do soloplay to get more renown for themselves, but having healers advance so much further behind them is still bad from a game balance point of view, at least IMO.

[Natherul]

Spoiler:

I hope you thought more than 5 seconds about the consequences of this kind of change.

What matters in a kill is not doing "the most damage", it is doing meaningful damage.

I hope you've put some kind of timer, something like a time window for measuring that damage, else be prepared to a bunch of evil side effect to that change.

1. you think that purely DB is better? because that is what it was at so a snipe would get the reward.
2. Im not done with the system either, this is the first step

I don't think DB was better by a long shot, but let me ask you this. What happens if you play a support class that does no damage like a healer or very little damage like a tank? The only way you are going to get any renown is by being in the optimal/alpha group make up. This simply doesn't happen with any thing remotely resembling enough frequency to be viable in practice. I understand the system is work in progress for you, but what are the consequences for those that do little to no damage until the rest of the system is live?

Look at this example, and believe me when I say it represent reality much of the time:

Lets say you are a healer and join a pug warband. One group is perfectly set up for doing the most damage possible and the other groups are a mix of low/no damage/uplevels. How is that healer supposed to get renown? Ok, the healer asks for the DPS to be split evenly and the groups to be fair and it falls on deaf ears. (this has happened literally every time I have asked personally) What recourse do I have to advance my character? I can leave the warband and go solo dps stuff, but now with this change, I cannot even snipe kills for advancement.

So what do you want all your healers to do? I suppose we can gear out twice (once full dps and once full heals) and just say forget warbands all together because it is more trouble than it is worth?

First off I only play SnB tanks so its not like I am unaffected by this change. The issue is multi fold, partly like wargrim said as a tank and healer you have a low risk compared to a DPS so the rewards if anything makes sense if its lower. And thats not even considering trying to make code that is fair and take tanks and healers into consideration when calculating the drop.

As it is I dont think a system that would somehow boost a tank or healers chance to get loot is actually fair, because what metric should you use? damage avoided for a tank, damage taken for a tank? that can be lots upon lots to the point that a DPS would have no chance while still the tank is at a lower risk of dying. Same for healers, just adding in healing can easily dwarf and damage in the best of situation and still a low risk of dying.

EDIT:
also keep in mind what Im talking about here is not RR, inf or XP gain but purely the loot from a player

[Bozzax]

It is not about risk reward it is about average renown gain per hour being extremly borked

[Natherul]

It is not about risk reward it is about average renown gain per hour being extremly borked

renown gain has nothing to do with the change I made or am talking about, thats is only for the loot that the player drops

[covenn]

Spoiler:

1. Without a group you're at a greater risk of total failure, zerg surfing or not.

Healers are the last ones to die in group/warband situations unless they screw up. Lower risk, lower reward. The more DPS you add to your heal spec, the more rewarding it becomes as you're contributing to the renown generation, but you also increase the risk of your group/warbands failure for not providing 100% non-stop healing. This 100% seems to be the hard-stuck position that most healers feel most comfortable with. Saying it forces you to solo play for good rewards ignores the range of possibilities and risks that occur between group vs solo.

2. The example given was 1v1, not following a warband as a random additional DPS class. This does happen, they do get left behind. Part of that risk taken, probably not as much as it could be, but then there are more than enough reasons to find a group already, seeing as it's the only place a proper full-time healer can earn any reasonable renown.

Also, this from today.
Natherul
- Player loot / money will no no longer go to the killing blow, but instead go to the player/group that did the most damage to the player

3. This was not intended to illuminate how rude you can be to those solo DPS players. I'm understand why you read into it like that, but the point being that if a solo DPS is willing to group up, you can both share in that glory. If they're not, your options are rather limited.

4. I'll fully disagree here. There's a long line of players that enjoy running healers and tanks as DPS. There's another long line of players that enjoy the hybrid specs that are admittedly a bit ****. Neither of these groups of players have caused the collapse of any war effort. If anything, the disparity is highly unlikely to be realm dependent, so you have equal amounts of players on both sides doing the same things. Life goes on, just not in a highly optimal way.

1. To be fair. The actual risk in being solo or not depends entirely on your class. A solo MDPS has extremely high inherent risk zerg surfing because they have to go hit people. A RDPS has inherently low risk because they can sit at max range killing stuff for profit.

Regarding the rest of #1, to be frank and with no intended insult, that is a little demeaning to the people healing to say it is low risk/low reward and I am absolutely certain most healers would back me up on that. Healers aren't damage dealers, they enable everyone else to do damage, and are the focus of anyone trying to win a fight. I spend entire fights avoiding mdps, rdps, we/wh, and trying to leave myself in a position at the same time to keep the most people alive possible. Not only that, I guarantee you that I do far far more work... not just work, but THOUGHTFUL work in a fight than any other class I play when I am on a healer. People seem to think you just spam a button and profit, and that is extremely short sighted. Triage and positioning is what a healer is about.

As it currently is, you are punishing players for supporting everyone else's enjoyment by rewarding them less and now by also telling them all that their class is low risk/low reward/mindless button spamming. Sorry if my tone is a bit cross, but try looking at it from your healer's point of view.

2. Think real hard about that comment and match it up with what all the healers are telling you. You are saying that DPS have incentive to group up because healers can ONLY group up. Well ok, but that is only partially true. Healers HAVE to group up and be in an OPTIMAL group makeup with DECENT players to function. Without that, the incentive for healers to heal goes away.

Limiting the classes that support the game play of everyone else by forcing them into perfect group comps in order to function is a self defeating, vicious cycle. Maybe someone else can explain it better than I can, because I feel like I am doing it poorly. You are basically creating an environment that removes incentive for healers to group up unless all variables align properly. As such, your statement about incentive for DPS to group up to get heals isn't valid. No heals = no incentive.

3. Sharing in glory. Great sentiment, but the truth is the healer is getting none of the glory for equal effort. Great if you are grouped and all, but healing people outside of your group, people in other groups, people in other warbands, people trying to get to their warbands while you are trying to, people caught behind, and a million other things that happen in this game where a person taking damage and a healer aren't in the same group. You are telling all your healers to say 'screw healing' and do DPS instead, without realizing that only real recourse we have as a healer spec'd and geared for healing in these situations is to heal the dps because our paltry loldps isn't going to help the situation at all. Well if we want to actually advance our toons and get rewarded for our efforts that is....