Healing in RvR - renown

[covenn]

Maybe healers should use a few of those damaging abilities that take up half of their kit. It's almost like there's some intention there for them to do the occasional damage dealing in bigger fights.

Spoiler:

Some get a DPS log of how much you overheal during an extended RvR fight, that's where your wasted renown is going. You could have been tagging people with dots... such a shame...

Really?

I have to agree with Fey, better to not respond.

Oh, but you already did. Why not respond to the other two posts where I elaborated?

It was in the works and I did. Sorry, it takes a while to write a post in a way so as to get my point across without coming across in a way that would get me banned. The military made me very straight forward, blunt, and matter of fact and people often take that the wrong way.

I even edited the post you quoted apparently at the same time you responded to it to try and make is slightly more friendly in tone. My only goal is to make this game better for everyone with my comments and not to upset anyone that put their time and effort into bringing this game back from the dead. Trust me, I know how it is to be a developer.... heh. My shop, between direct employees, aerospace contractors, and outside agencies using my software number int he mid 7 digits. It is impossible to make everyone happy.

[covenn]

Spoiler:

Not sure why I'm even bothering but anyway...

1) 'We don't care about solo play' but no renown for solo healers healing dps (who largely refuse group invitations because then they have to share their juicy renown points) because 'it messes up the balance of rr rewards in solo play' (in other words healers might come close to gaining a fraction of what solo dps gain...)

2) Solo healers are 'free-leeching' by doing their job and healing their realm mates, but somehow solo dps are virtuous and deserve a veritable rain of purple numbers (but we don't care about solo play. Just solo dps).

3) 'Let the DPS die, take advantage of the situation with your own abilities to finish off the weak git.' Ever played a healer v a dps? That's what healers have detaunt for, because a healer going 1 v 1 against a half decent dps is free rr for the dps unless the healer can detaunt and find friends or safety. The second a healer throws a DOT on the dps they're going to feel the pain.

4) 'Ya'll wanna play pure healers, have at it. I'm just saying, they're not pure healers, that's just how people play them.' Because you've spent the last year and a bit making damn sure hybrid specs have been nerfed into the ground, probably with good reason. This is absolutely an archetypal trinity game, healers heal, dps dps and tanks tank and cc (the good ones do anyway). To suddenly claim that everyone should be a GW style hybrid, healing and dpsing, and even more ludicrously in your last post, claiming that healers have AP and gcds in RvR to throw DOTs out - which thanks to the nerfing of hybrids and the way avoidance works will hit any decently spec'd/geared enemy for about 5 damage - just shows how seriously this thread is being taken. Just lock it now and save those of us that want a serious discussion from wasting our breath.

Do you seriously think that anyone bar dps gets any joy from playing solo? I play healers and tanks and the only reason I'm ever solo is if there's no guild or PUG wb up, and no one is accepting group invites. No one is masochistic enough to try and play a solo healer or a solo tank-spec'd tank in the current zerg meta. This whole thread is about making sure healers get suitably rewarded for healing (ie doing their job) in WBs, and combating the mindset some dps have of 'why would I bother grouping with you and sharing my rewards'.

Thanks for bothering, you could use some work on your tone.

1. Considering solo play, some classes are very good at it, others are not. We largely don't bother with class mechanics to ensure they're good at solo play. In the case of healers in particular, allowing solo/out-of-group healing to reward renown has the negative side-effect we strongly wish to avoid of encouraging healers to not group up at all. In such a case, they can just as effectively split rewards with only themselves and the person getting the kill, not contributing to group play. As what we do focus on when it comes to further development, this statement "We don't care about solo play" is accurate to our long held position. Group up.

2. If someone wants heals, they should be in a group with a healer. Otherwise, it's essentially charity work. If that lonely solo dps doesn't need your heals to do whatever, then don't heal him. Don't be fooled by the big ticks of renown they get, that's once every couple of minutes, if they can find a suitable target, on the off chance that target doesn't... have a healer.

3. You're not going 1v1 in the situation I laid out. You're going 2v1, after the other DPS dies because they refused to group. Taking out a target with 10% HP maybe, if you're feeling particularly generous, sending the ally a rez afterwards, and a group invite.

4. Hybrids have been nerfed, indirectly by implementing proper mitigation and the prevalence of Deft Defender in a RDPS dominated game, and through the removal of .ab ex which we do intend to address properly once we have the ability to do so. For some reason working on the patcher seems to make devs turn into ghosts. I suspect it's not a trivial issue. My statement was more directed towards the desire to receive renown, you need to do damage, or you're reliant on your group to do it for you.

For now you'll have to build towards INT gear if you want to contribute to kills, there's pieces with disrupt strikethrough, and until the meta changes to the point that DD isn't as prevalent, you're going to suffer similar woes as other ranged classes do. I play a Shaman, Da Green was a lot of fun during the brief .ab ex period where they did tons of healing and decent damage, but it was pulled because it was significantly overperforming. Same with Dok/WP, who still manage to be potent in groups designed for their melee to flourish. Not the best, but enough to roll over pugs with a coordinated group.

A DPS specced healer with low willpower can deal damage. They can group heal too. They can throw hots. Despite being specced for one thing, you don't lose access to the other, it's just diminished in effectiveness. Yeah, your group might yell at you for doing damage, but that comes with the general attitude that this game is a classic trinity setup despite healers having a DPS tree, and tanks having a DPS tree, maybe even in ranged classes having melee trees. Play how you like, but you might need some friends willing to do the same thing, or a pug warband that isn't paying attention enough to care.


So, all that being said, I don't see an issue with looking into whether warband healing is contributing in a similar fashion that in-group healing is. But I don't see taking a step into the realm of what would likely give healers a reason to drop their groups and spam hots on anyone nearby to leech RP. That was definitely a thing that we don't want to see return.

1. I get what you are saying in theory, but it doesn't work in practice. The rewards for DPSing without a group far out weigh the rewards for healing within one. The rewards for DPSing *in* a warband generally outweigh healing in one unless you are in the perfect optimal group. Sure a healer can complain about making the groups fair for all the healers, but if the warband leader doesn't comply your only choice is to drop group .....i.e. forcing you into solo play.

2. I disagree. Zerg surf as a DPS spec = far far more profit. Nobody is getting fooled by big ticks. They happen regularly and repeatedly and getting healed or not is irrelevant unless you play a class that requires a healer to function and there are only two of those (BWs/Sorcs).

3. Again, this statement doesn't support group play or team work. Let a team mate die so you can get the kill, then talk crap to them, be a douche to them in general, etc. Not a good way to make friends, not a good way to succeed, and not a good way to make a gaming experience enjoyable for everyone. I am not trying to attack you or disrespect you here, but I am simply not that big of a jerk. Most people aren't.

Instead of asking everyone to be jerks to one another, wouldn't it be far more simpler to rewards people equally for their roles? The better they do it, the better they get rewarded? YOu all have done a great job with this game, I have no doubt you have the talent design something brilliant in that aspect.

4. Really, this game cant handle asking all the healers to be hybrids without reworking the game mechanics and numerous abilities. It needs full time healers.

[covenn]

Anyways, I said my peace and my only intent is to make things fair for everyone and to hopefully improve game play and fun. If your intent with this game is to get rid of pure healers, then my comments are irrelevant and you can ignore much of them. Of course you can't do anything about the people that want and like to play healers, but hey ....there are other games right? This is your sandbox, we just play in it.

[wargrimnir]

Spoiler:

Not sure why I'm even bothering but anyway...

1) 'We don't care about solo play' but no renown for solo healers healing dps (who largely refuse group invitations because then they have to share their juicy renown points) because 'it messes up the balance of rr rewards in solo play' (in other words healers might come close to gaining a fraction of what solo dps gain...)

2) Solo healers are 'free-leeching' by doing their job and healing their realm mates, but somehow solo dps are virtuous and deserve a veritable rain of purple numbers (but we don't care about solo play. Just solo dps).

3) 'Let the DPS die, take advantage of the situation with your own abilities to finish off the weak git.' Ever played a healer v a dps? That's what healers have detaunt for, because a healer going 1 v 1 against a half decent dps is free rr for the dps unless the healer can detaunt and find friends or safety. The second a healer throws a DOT on the dps they're going to feel the pain.

4) 'Ya'll wanna play pure healers, have at it. I'm just saying, they're not pure healers, that's just how people play them.' Because you've spent the last year and a bit making damn sure hybrid specs have been nerfed into the ground, probably with good reason. This is absolutely an archetypal trinity game, healers heal, dps dps and tanks tank and cc (the good ones do anyway). To suddenly claim that everyone should be a GW style hybrid, healing and dpsing, and even more ludicrously in your last post, claiming that healers have AP and gcds in RvR to throw DOTs out - which thanks to the nerfing of hybrids and the way avoidance works will hit any decently spec'd/geared enemy for about 5 damage - just shows how seriously this thread is being taken. Just lock it now and save those of us that want a serious discussion from wasting our breath.

Do you seriously think that anyone bar dps gets any joy from playing solo? I play healers and tanks and the only reason I'm ever solo is if there's no guild or PUG wb up, and no one is accepting group invites. No one is masochistic enough to try and play a solo healer or a solo tank-spec'd tank in the current zerg meta. This whole thread is about making sure healers get suitably rewarded for healing (ie doing their job) in WBs, and combating the mindset some dps have of 'why would I bother grouping with you and sharing my rewards'.

Thanks for bothering, you could use some work on your tone.

1. Considering solo play, some classes are very good at it, others are not. We largely don't bother with class mechanics to ensure they're good at solo play. In the case of healers in particular, allowing solo/out-of-group healing to reward renown has the negative side-effect we strongly wish to avoid of encouraging healers to not group up at all. In such a case, they can just as effectively split rewards with only themselves and the person getting the kill, not contributing to group play. As what we do focus on when it comes to further development, this statement "We don't care about solo play" is accurate to our long held position. Group up.

2. If someone wants heals, they should be in a group with a healer. Otherwise, it's essentially charity work. If that lonely solo dps doesn't need your heals to do whatever, then don't heal him. Don't be fooled by the big ticks of renown they get, that's once every couple of minutes, if they can find a suitable target, on the off chance that target doesn't... have a healer.

3. You're not going 1v1 in the situation I laid out. You're going 2v1, after the other DPS dies because they refused to group. Taking out a target with 10% HP maybe, if you're feeling particularly generous, sending the ally a rez afterwards, and a group invite.

4. Hybrids have been nerfed, indirectly by implementing proper mitigation and the prevalence of Deft Defender in a RDPS dominated game, and through the removal of .ab ex which we do intend to address properly once we have the ability to do so. For some reason working on the patcher seems to make devs turn into ghosts. I suspect it's not a trivial issue. My statement was more directed towards the desire to receive renown, you need to do damage, or you're reliant on your group to do it for you.

For now you'll have to build towards INT gear if you want to contribute to kills, there's pieces with disrupt strikethrough, and until the meta changes to the point that DD isn't as prevalent, you're going to suffer similar woes as other ranged classes do. I play a Shaman, Da Green was a lot of fun during the brief .ab ex period where they did tons of healing and decent damage, but it was pulled because it was significantly overperforming. Same with Dok/WP, who still manage to be potent in groups designed for their melee to flourish. Not the best, but enough to roll over pugs with a coordinated group.

A DPS specced healer with low willpower can deal damage. They can group heal too. They can throw hots. Despite being specced for one thing, you don't lose access to the other, it's just diminished in effectiveness. Yeah, your group might yell at you for doing damage, but that comes with the general attitude that this game is a classic trinity setup despite healers having a DPS tree, and tanks having a DPS tree, maybe even in ranged classes having melee trees. Play how you like, but you might need some friends willing to do the same thing, or a pug warband that isn't paying attention enough to care.


So, all that being said, I don't see an issue with looking into whether warband healing is contributing in a similar fashion that in-group healing is. But I don't see taking a step into the realm of what would likely give healers a reason to drop their groups and spam hots on anyone nearby to leech RP. That was definitely a thing that we don't want to see return.

1. I get what you are saying in theory, but it doesn't work in practice. The rewards for DPSing without a group far out weigh the rewards for healing within one. The rewards for DPSing *in* a warband generally outweigh healing in one unless you are in the perfect optimal group. Sure a healer can complain about making the groups fair for all the healers, but if the warband leader doesn't comply your only choice is to drop group .....i.e. forcing you into solo play.

2. I disagree. Zerg surf as a DPS spec = far far more profit. Nobody is getting fooled by big ticks. They happen regularly and repeatedly and getting healed or not is irrelevant unless you play a class that requires a healer to function and there are only two of those (BWs/Sorcs).

3. Again, this statement doesn't support group play or team work. Let a team mate die so you can get the kill, then talk crap to them, be a douche to them in general, etc. Not a good way to make friends, not a good way to succeed, and not a good way to make a gaming experience enjoyable for everyone. I am not trying to attack you or disrespect you here, but I am simply not that big of a jerk. Most people aren't.

Instead of asking everyone to be jerks to one another, wouldn't it be far more simpler to rewards people equally for their roles? The better they do it, the better they get rewarded? YOu all have done a great job with this game, I have no doubt you have the talent design something brilliant in that aspect.

4. Really, this game cant handle asking all the healers to be hybrids without reworking the game mechanics and numerous abilities. It needs full time healers.

1. Without a group you're at a greater risk of total failure, zerg surfing or not.

Healers are the last ones to die in group/warband situations unless they screw up. Lower risk, lower reward. The more DPS you add to your heal spec, the more rewarding it becomes as you're contributing to the renown generation, but you also increase the risk of your group/warbands failure for not providing 100% non-stop healing. This 100% seems to be the hard-stuck position that most healers feel most comfortable with. Saying it forces you to solo play for good rewards ignores the range of possibilities and risks that occur between group vs solo.

2. The example given was 1v1, not following a warband as a random additional DPS class. This does happen, they do get left behind. Part of that risk taken, probably not as much as it could be, but then there are more than enough reasons to find a group already, seeing as it's the only place a proper full-time healer can earn any reasonable renown.

Also, this from today.
Natherul
- Player loot / money will no no longer go to the killing blow, but instead go to the player/group that did the most damage to the player

3. This was not intended to illuminate how rude you can be to those solo DPS players. I'm understand why you read into it like that, but the point being that if a solo DPS is willing to group up, you can both share in that glory. If they're not, your options are rather limited.

4. I'll fully disagree here. There's a long line of players that enjoy running healers and tanks as DPS. There's another long line of players that enjoy the hybrid specs that are admittedly a bit ****. Neither of these groups of players have caused the collapse of any war effort. If anything, the disparity is highly unlikely to be realm dependent, so you have equal amounts of players on both sides doing the same things. Life goes on, just not in a highly optimal way.

[Ridduk]

i think only people who play these pure healers regularly can fully understand how much they contribute and how much they are needed esp. in orvr play. you rarely see wb leaders asking for melee heals (mostly a liability). i know myself when i am on a dps or tank i often take for granted what really goes in to keeping me alive . its quite a chore for healers in large scale fights.

[Rida]

i think only people who play these pure healers regularly can fully understand how much they contribute and how much they are needed esp. in orvr play. you rarely see wb leaders asking for melee heals (mostly a liability). i know myself when i am on a dps or tank i often take for granted what really goes in to keeping me alive . its quite a chore for healers in large scale fights.

I have plenty of time to throw DOT on everybody around while healing. It's easy.

[Sulorie]

Those dots just deal almost no dmg.

I don't know why out of group hots is considered bad but aoe dmg is ok.

When a dps sees 2 people fighting each other in rvr, he can join, help killing and is rewarded.
When a healer sees the same 2 people, he better rides along. Not worth to deal dmg, because it is super low and healing is not rewarded.

[mynie]

Spoiler:

- Player loot / money will no no longer go to the killing blow, but instead go to the player/group that did the most damage to the player

I hope you thought more than 5 seconds about the consequences of this kind of change.

What matters in a kill is not doing "the most damage", it is doing meaningful damage.

I hope you've put some kind of timer, something like a time window for measuring that damage, else be prepared to a bunch of evil side effect to that change.

[Natherul]

Spoiler:

I hope you thought more than 5 seconds about the consequences of this kind of change.

What matters in a kill is not doing "the most damage", it is doing meaningful damage.

I hope you've put some kind of timer, something like a time window for measuring that damage, else be prepared to a bunch of evil side effect to that change.

1. you think that purely DB is better? because that is what it was at so a snipe would get the reward.
2. Im not done with the system either, this is the first step

[Zintair]

My issue is with warband healing. I don't care about the solo game or any examples regarding it. I'll save the dude regardless cause ... realm.

But when I joined a T4 warband and healed like crazy and we won a fight I literally got barely anything for renown or xp.

If healers were rewarded the same in group as in warband I think a lot of people would be much happier. I know I would.

I want to group. I'll still group. But it's crushing when my bars barely move after a huge Zerg win because I got the lucky group with some bums. And yea I get it get friends or get better players and group with them. Just want to be rewarded for my efforts in my warband healing and doing my part.

Anything else to me is not as big a deal. Also not to sure about scenarios and separate parties. Just know this is the case for me in ORVR.